TRYING TO GET STARTED

[NuJudge]

It measures distance of the bullet to the lands.

I actually like to have cast Lead bullets thrust a little into the lands, if they are to be fired in a manually operated rifle. This is not something I would do with a semi-auto. If you are going to thrust a Lead bullet into the rifling, you must crimp the bullet so you can extract the cartridge without leaving the bullet behind.

CDD

[DuncaninFrance]

Latest results! Not encouraging!

Loaded 2 types of bullet using 1.35 grams / 20.83 grains of Tubal 2000.
First supplied by the seller of the rifle were from a LEE 303B mould at 178-180 grains and an O/D of about .313/.314”

Second type were from Adam. Lyman Mould #2660290 - .314” O/D at about 188-192 grains.

Both loads had the gas check removed and were seated so the tip of the bullet did not quite touch the start of the rifling.

I check zeroed the rifle with the last of my 5 PRVI FMJ and the second group was satisfactory as can be seen from the target. Weather was cold but no wind.



I then shot the LEE moulded ammo – not one hit on the target at 50mtrs!
I then shot the Lyman ammo. As you can see from the target picture the group was about 34” with a hit rate of about 70%. The only improvement seemed to be that there was no keyholing.



With a suspicion that there may be a powder charge variance because I had used a Lee Perfect Powder Measure, I pulled the last 3 LEE cast bullets and check weighed the charge. All 3 checked at 1.35 grams so this is not the problem. The bore was clean and took very little cleaning after 20 rounds so the powder appears to have burnt OK.



SO! Where do I go from here? I have approx 18 of the Loverin bullets to shoot. Should I increase the load to say 1.45 grams / 22-23 grains of Tubal 2000 or try some Vihtavuori? My pal Alain has N130, N140 & N150 in his stock.

Answers on a £10 note to………………………..

[dromia]

I'd try gas checked boolits next with the same load.

You appear to have vertical stringing there with the Lyman boolit.

Could be poor boolit retention giving an incomplete burn, what is the case neck ID after resizing and neck/mouth expanding?

Could be bedding, did you change your sights or point of aim when shooting the PP jacketed to give the two groups.

Have you checked the king screw fit tightness?

If the rifle is OK the try with GC'd boolits next, only change one variable at a time or you'll get lost in the load.

[dromia]

BTW keep away from wads, the presence of it in your inherited ammo could indicate position sensitivity in the powder.

Fillers have been said to cause chamber ringing, I've seen it but am not certain it could be attributed to fillers but seems plausible.

The photos of your cases do look like they are bulged but I think that is more a function of light and dark in the picture and incomplete neck sizing, some thing to look at anyway and eliminate.

Remember - only change one variable at a time.

[DuncaninFrance]

Happy New Year Adam, thanks for the info.
To answer a couple.
I didn't shoot the LEE as complete loads supplied, I just loaded the cast bullets he gave me using HXPO cases.

The PRVI Patrizan loads were shot using the same POA - centre - I just changed the sight after the first 2 shots.

I took the gas checks off all of the rounds before loading.

Case neck I/D's
After Re-sizing: .306"
Fired:Lyman-.3154"
LEE - .3126"

The cases before firing are bulged, it is not the light.

King Screw?

[dromia]

King screw = big screw just in front of the magazine well.

What did you use to enlarge the case mouth for boolit seating?

[NuJudge]

Do those two things, plus elevate the muzzle before each shot, and I believe you will have nice groups. Do not stick the bullet so far down into the case that the base intrudes into the powder area: US NRA published pictures years ago showing really ugly looking errosion all over the portion of the bullet that intruded.

Your bullets are apparently filling the grooves now, based on no Leading and the bullets stabilizing. Gas checks, more than anything, act as a structural reinforcement of the base of the bullet. Without that reinforcement, bad things happen to the base at higher pressures, and groups go wild. My Scientific Wild Guess is your muzzle velocity is up in the 1600 to 1800 fps range. With that high a velocity and the pressures necessary to generate that velocity, generally expect bad accuracy without a gas check.

Regarding nose position of the bullet, I prefer slightly into the rifling. I am sure you have used bolt-action .22 rimfire rifles. Virtually all manually operated .22 rimfire rifles I have examined thrust the bullet slightly into the rifling. You can see this on withdrawing an unfired cartridge from the chamber. With a relatively pure Lead bullet, it takes little force to do this. This keeps the nose area of the relatively soft bullet from slumping to one side or the other on firing.

The Tubal 2000 powder you are using is almost identical in burning rate to Accurate Arms 5744, at least according to this burning rate chart (see (122 & 123):
http://home.hiwaay.net/~stargate/powder/powder.htm
There is a bit of .303 data using Lead bullets and 5744:
http://www.reloadersnest.com/query_pw.a ... r=Accurate 5744

Vectan apparently classes Tu2000 as being next to H4198 and IMR4198:
http://www.nobelsport.fr/nobelsport/fr/ ... e_2006.pdf
Small quantities of Tubal 2000 have leaked across the water to the US, and friends of mine class it as very close to H4198 and good with cast bullets:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... Tubal+2000
There is some 4198 data for the .303 on the net:
http://www.public.asu.edu/~roblewis/SML ... a11a4.html
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... =4198+.303
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... =4198+.303
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... =4198+.303
Accurate Arms 5744 and the two 4198s have excellent reputations for cast bullet shooting, but that does not mean Tubal 2000 will. The closeness in burn rate says that the data should not be too different.
The only .303 Tubal loading data I find on the Internet is here (only Tubal 3000, 5000, and SP7 listed for the .303):
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7278645/Table ... Sport-2006

It would be nice to know what your velocities were. That would tell you for certain whether you were getting erratic ignition. The fact that your groups have a huge vertical aspect, and a small latteral aspect, makes me suspect erratic ignition. It may be you can't get away without using a pinch of dacron, but using it scares me too much to use it. If you do, use just a grain or two.

[DuncaninFrance]

King screw = big screw just in front of the magazine well.

What did you use to enlarge the case mouth for boolit seating?

I have a 2 die 303 British by Lyman and used the re-sizing die.

[NuJudge]

"What did you use to enlarge the case mouth for boolit seating?"

I believe Dromia is asking about what you use to bell the .303 case mouth so you can later Seat the soft cast bullet with a minimum of damage. If you don't use something to expand the case mouth, there will be lots of gouging damage to the Lead bullet. The Seat die later gets rid of the belling. Even if you did not use any form of belling die, your groups would probably not be as bad as those shown.

There are various techniques of belling the case mouth. Lee makes a belling die:
http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog ... pandingDie

Lyman makes what is called an "M" die, which expands the outermost portion of the case neck to an internal diameter slightly larger than the bullet, and leaves the rest of the neck slightly smaller than bullet diameter:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=129697

You can also just borrow a Decapping/Expanding die from a set of pistol dies for a caliber that uses the same or slightly smaller bullet, or buy a replacement belling expander ball for an appropriate die body with a much larger internal diameter:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=784003

Hope this helps. I use all of the above at various times.

[DuncaninFrance]

After last nights (for me anyway) Chat on Skype discussion I am posting, as promised, a series of pictures showing how I attach gas checks to un-sized cast bullets.
The bullets have now been 'tumbled in Alox' without any gas checks falling off so the next step beckons!!











Simples!