A FLASH IN THE PAN

Muzzle and breech loading black powder firearms. Military and sporting.
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Niner
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Re: A FLASH IN THE PAN

Post by Niner » Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:05 pm

Don't believe a Welshman? Somehow that doesn't surprise me. Besides Tristan Jones did imagine a lot of his told as true sea adventures. But he was a great story teller none the less.

Here is another one of his maybe true definitions:

sons of guns: in the days of fighting sail, matelots were not allowed ashore. Their womenfolk were brought on board, and lived with their men in their berths between the cannons. Some women gave birth to babies on board and the male babies were brought up on board and spent their whole lives in the Andrew. These were 'sons of guns'.

Tristan Jones. Heart of Oak Glossary.
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Re: A FLASH IN THE PAN

Post by DuncaninFrance » Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:55 pm

Yes, he was a bit of a dreamer!

Snopes has a lot of info here http://www.snopes.com/language/phrases/sonofgun.asp
Duncan

What contemptible scoundrel has stolen the cork to my lunch? -- W.C. Fields
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Re: A FLASH IN THE PAN

Post by Niner » Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:09 pm

I give up on Tristan. I like the Snopes reasoning too....... now that you point it out.
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Re: A FLASH IN THE PAN

Post by DuncaninFrance » Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:06 am

KISS THE GUNNERS DAUGHTER.

It was a naval term from the latter part of the eighteenth century (it’s recorded first in A Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue by Francis Grose in 1785, but is probably a good deal older).

There were several forms of the saying, of which this was one; others were marry the gunner’s daughter and hug the gunner’s daughter. A sailor about to receive punishment (usually flogging) was lashed face-down on a cannon (the gunner’s daughter of the phrase). The sexual associations were clear enough, with marry being an obvious euphemism.

Here’s a typical example of its use, from Billy Budd by Herman Melville:

“And is that all you did about it, Foretopman?” gruffly demanded another, an irascible old fellow of brick-colored visage and hair, and who was known to his associate forecastlemen as Red Pepper; “Such sneaks I should like to marry to the gunner’s daughter!” by that expression meaning that he would like to subject them to disciplinary castigation over a gun. MICHAEL QUINION
Duncan

What contemptible scoundrel has stolen the cork to my lunch? -- W.C. Fields
"Many of those who enjoy freedom know little of its price."
You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something.
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Re: A FLASH IN THE PAN

Post by Tom-May » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:31 am

Gatofeo wrote:"...
Other weapon-related expressions include:

Bayonet -- First produced in Bayonne, France. It may be the only weapon named for its place of origin. Others would argue that "Springfield" carries that distinction but that name describes a variety of weapons produced at the Springfield Arsenal, not one specific type of weapon....
I have to mention the Lochaber Axe - a distinctive Scots pole-arm with a blade resembling a bill hook, but with the convex side sharpened, and often surmounted by a spike or hook

Image

I'm surprised nobody mentioned "loose cannon" - "...An unpredictable or uncontrollable person or thing, esp. considered liable to cause unintentional or indiscriminate damage..."
A ship's gun running loose on deck in rough weather could cause a lot of damage.

I'm not sure, but I believe the term "truck" (as in vehicle for transporting goods) might be attributed to "truck" ( A small solid wooden wheel or roller; spec. Naut. one of those on which the carriages of ships' guns were formerly mounted.), admittedly there are other definitions of the term, but, apart from "...To trudge, tramp...." they all refer to trade or barter, not carriage. ... am I stretching things here?


If I might add one extra comment

As Gatefo points out "...Shrapnel -- Fragments from a hollow artillery shell that contains a powder charge, designed to be thrown off at high velocity when the charge explodes. Shrapnel is NOT fragments of brick, rock, metal or other objects thrown off by the shell's impact, contrary to what today's journalists and writers believe.
Shrapnel is named for Lt. Henry Shrapnel, a British officer who designed a hollow artillery shell containing a number of balls and a charge of powder to burst the shell..."

By the same token, I am continually irritated by the use of the term "Berm" for an artificial hill or mound, often used for defensive purposes - the Berm was an engineering term for that lip of flat ground between a hole or trench and the spoil heap (or parapet/parados), left to stop the spoil falling straight back into the hole.

As you might guess, I sitting here with nothing to do (client didn't turn up)
The Truth IS Out There, The lies are in your head. (T. Pratchett - 'Hogfather'))
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Re: A FLASH IN THE PAN

Post by Niner » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:02 am

Tom, in Vietnam the term "berm" was generally thought of as a pushed up dirt mound a few feet in height that circled the perimeter of a fire base. Generally no trenches at all were anywhere close to a berm but there was an occasional built up bunker embedded in the ridge of the circle as defensive points and, beyond the berm, some concertina wire and a narrow mine field. I never knew what the original usage of the term was. Interesting what you have stated.

Now that it comes to mind. One of the reasons that there were no perimeter trenches was that they could be turned against the defenders if they were reached after the perimeter was breached. The "berm" as a mound of dirt offered some protection to defenders but less to attackers from the mined and wired side.

I visited a US civil war battle site some years ago. It was in an area that hadn't been farmed and much of the dirt works were, much eroded, but still noticeable. One thing that struck me was that where the listening posts were situated, out beyond the redoubts by 150 or so yards, they were half moon shaped indentations cupped into the earth with the high side (couple of feet high) facing toward the enemy approach, but the back side, although slanting down, left completely open to observation and fire from the redoubt when the pickets were called in during an attack. That was smarter than the guys who built the fire bases in Vietnam were a century later. But at least in Vietnam they didn't put trenches in the berm.....at least at the places I saw.
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Re: A FLASH IN THE PAN

Post by DuncaninFrance » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:49 pm

This is becoming really interesting :D .

One thing that makes me see RED is when you get people in war movies or the like saying "OVER AND OUT" :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

As most of us will know, OVER means I want a reply and OUT means The end of this conversation/communication/broadcast...... You can't use both words in the same phrase and make any sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now to a few nautical terms...........

Monkey's Orphan. The name given to the ships fiddler in olden days.
Admiralty ham. Tinned corned beef.
Admiralty Weather. Sunshine during working hours and rain when you are off duty.
Angel's footstool. A fancy name given to one of the skysails in sailing ships.
Armstrong's Patent. Any machinery that has to be worked by hand.
Belly Timber. Provisions.
The Big ashtray. A reminder, in the interests of cleanliness, to throw fag-ends into the sea ( the biggest ashtray there is ) and not onto the decks.
Bone in her teeth. Said of any vessel that produces a large quantity of foam when under way.
Duncan

What contemptible scoundrel has stolen the cork to my lunch? -- W.C. Fields
"Many of those who enjoy freedom know little of its price."
You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something.
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