Carcano Moschetto TS and fucile M41

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Carcano Moschetto TS and fucile M41

Postby Niner » Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:22 pm

Had some time on my hands. I was going to see why a cleaning rod wouldn't screw into the M41 Carcano. While I was at it I decided to take the Carcano 8mm carbine apart and photo what differences would show to a casual inspection.

A few differences to note.

The carbine at 36 inches long is 10 inches shorter than the rifle.

The carbine was configured during WWII to shoot the same ammo as the 8mm K98 Mauser and the M41 is in the original 6.5 Italian caliber.

The Carbine has two through bolts in the stock that the rifle doesn't have. One bolt through the wrist and one ahead of the trigger guard assembly. The idea was to make the stock stronger for the smaller rifle using the more potent ammo.

The Carbine has a half moon cut from the receiver and the rifle doesn't have this feature. Both weapons use the basic Carcano clip. But the 8mm ammo would be normally a third of an inch or so longer. Perhaps that's at least part of the reason why the difference in receiver configuration.

The Carbine bolt handle is bent and the rifle is straight.

The Carbine rear sight is a non adjustment battle sight where the M41 has a multiple choice sight.

The metal piece the cleaning rod goes into is slightly different in the way it is configured. Perhaps the carbine, as configured, was never intended to have a cleaning rod?

The front barrel band has a sling slot on the rifle and not on the carbine.

The basic design and function are the same on both rifles.
Attachments
both.jpg
both taken down.jpg
stock through bolts.jpg
nose cap.jpg
rear sight.jpg
bolt handles.jpg
barrel bands.jpg
receiver top.jpg
rod holder nut.jpg
trigger housing.jpg
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Re: Carcano Moschetto TS and fucile M41

Postby DocAV » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:41 am

Differences between M91/38 TS Moschetto and M41 Rifle.

Basically, the Shown TS is set up as a Musketoon ( Sling swivels underneath only) and not double slung ( side sling loops and Butt Loop recessed into LHS of Butt, although the Butt recess and bar may still be there.
Some TS during WW I were converted to double slinging, and the arrangement became general with the M91/28 unified TS design. But some versions, such as the Naval Infantry issue, retained the single underneath Front band loop. By WW II, mixture of parts was common in most "short length" Italian Moschetti of the TS design.

M1941 Rifles (Fucile) were originally configured to be used both as an Infantry Rifle, and to be cross shoulder sling as for Mounted Troops, hence the double slinging arrangement.

Cleaning rods. The TS Moschetti of all eras have a one piece rod under the barrel, just like the M41, though shorter, and a special thread on the shank of the rod to screw it into the Front (bayonet) Band;

Only the Moschetto da Cavalleria and the Fucile Corto M38 and M91/38 had a two or three piece threaded rod in the Butt hole.

Of course the Post-war and HKrieghoff conversions to 7,9mm German Cartridge have some added differences --Cross Bolts, clearance slot for longer cartridge in Receiver, assuming they would get to use a special 5 round Carcano type clip for 7,9 cartridges...Never happened in real life...although some experimental clips were made, and some rare eaxamples have surfaced, eventually all the Late WW II conversions by HK were single shot (Wood block in mag Well); and the Post-War Export to Egypt versions were single shot as well...No clips have ever surfaced from the Middle East.

regards,
Doc AV
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Re: Carcano Moschetto TS and fucile M41

Postby Niner » Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:08 am

Thanks Doc. That's all very enlightening. I'll admit I'm pretty ignorant about them. I can see how a rod could have been on the carbine with treads on the outside of the rod. The aperture in the cap and the slot into the stock is there. However, the same rod that the rifle has will slip through it easily because it's screw threads are cut into the rod surface.

I went and took a few photos of the carbine cap and one of them did show that the rod opening was threaded. That's something you have taught me.

The magazine assembly of the carbine has the exact same look as the rifle. Mine didn't come with any wood block or other modification that is obvious. And since the carbine is using a rimless cartridge it would have been difficult to load without being fed upward to connect with the bolt face. And like you say, the clip for the 6.5 didn't hold the 8mm cartridges in any way that could be used. I discovered this some years ago when I fired it with some old Turk 8mm.....the kind people warn you about not to shoot in it. I've noted that Walter, in his catalog of weapons says that "a modified clip was welded into the the magazine to retain the cartridges, which had to be loaded as singles owing to the absence of stripper-clip guides". Maybe that happened some times but nothing additional is welded into mine that I can see.

I only shot the rifle a few times on one ocasion. In order to load it single shot you had to hook the rim of the cartridge under the extractor on the bolt head and then close the bolt. About like what happens on a Mauser, only with a Mauser you have a magazine spring to help guide the rim of the "rimless" cartridge into the bolt face and under the extracter.

Both of these Carcanos that I own are reported to be from a found stock in North Africa. I'd bet on Egypt and that their military had a surplus junk sale. By about 1995 these rifles were considered too out of date even for African nations that liked to have revolutions.

Wonder how the Model 1938 clip in 7.35x52 would have worked?

By the way, the 8mm carbine shot pretty good as I remember...at relatively short ranges. And standing up and firing it with no rest touching it, the recoil didn't seem all that bad. I remember thinking it was noticably softer than the Mannlicher carbine and its slightly different 8mm ammo.
Attachments
IMGP1239.jpg
If you look real close.....
Rod.jpg
Rifle rod goes through the opening with no notice of threads
no block.jpg
No wood block or other modification noted
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Re: Carcano Moschetto TS and fucile M41

Postby DocAV » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:52 pm

Dear Niner,
The M91 6,5 and the M38 7,35 clips are identical ( cartridge cases are the same, only bullet diameter different)

Walter's mention of a "Welded-in clip" is KRAP...period. Carcano cartridge clips have to be loaded "from the front"of the ends to fit the cartridges in. ( all Packet clips are loaded that way.)

The Germans did experiment with a 5-round 7,9 clip, but never got into production for the HK rifles.
The Post-war Italian 7,9 conversions ( For Egypt) were "single shot only" for training and occasional guard work.
Part of the training was how to load a single cartridge into the bolt and chamber it without busting the extractor.

Some keen shooters have modified Brass ( and occasionally Steel) Clips to function (sort of) with 7,9mm ammo, but it is the narrowness of the 6,5 case ( .450") as compared to the 7,9 case(.470") which gives the most headaches.

A completely NEW clip would be required to correctly lodge and feed the larger 7,9 cases, and still be a sliding fit in the Magazine well without having to "open it out" by .010" each side.

Regards,
Doc AV
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Re: Carcano Moschetto TS and fucile M41

Postby Niner » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:01 am

I was thinking about this carbine today and found this old post. Wonder what happened to Doc AV. Wonder if he is still alive and active in the internet gun communities that still are in existence. Anybody know?
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Re: Carcano Moschetto TS and fucile M41

Postby PeterN2 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:20 pm

He is still active on the Gunboards forums.
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Re: Carcano Moschetto TS and fucile M41

Postby Niner » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:28 pm

Good to know. Guess we don't talk enough about old milsurps on this site any longer. He probably needs more activity to comment.
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Re: Carcano Moschetto TS and fucile M41

Postby DuncaninFrance » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:49 am

One of our problems is that we probably talk quite a bit on Skype where you can wave the piece about in front of the camera ( and sometimes shoot it out the door!! ) It needs new members or new topics to start the comments on here...... :D
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