Since the WWI threads are really active. A look at the weapons

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Since the WWI threads are really active. A look at the weapons

Postby Niner » Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:09 pm

I figured I'd post something milsurp related for a change. My focus to begin with is one of the US made New England Westinghouse Mosin Nagants. They were contracted by the British for the Russians and began being made in 1915 by the "neutral" United States to aid the Europeans in killing each other. Some made it to Russia out of a total production...just by Westinghouse and not counting Remington...of over 700,000 rifles. Note in the photos my "prized" NEW with the SA stamp on the side. That rifle has been through the mill in the early to mid 20th Century wars and changed ownership a few times. And note next to it, in two photos, an identical to it Imperial Tula made two years later in 1917 that ended up in Bulgaria at some juncture. The last photo is a group picture of three of the foot soldier weapons for three of the major players in WWI. The British SMLE made in 1904, Mosin Nagant ,USA made for Russia 1915, or there about, and German Mauser by Oberndorf 1918. If it were a barrel measuring contest, the Russians win by finger length.

The Imperial is the one with the sling rings in the stock.
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Re: Since the WWI treads are the only ones really active

Postby Miller Tyme » Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:54 pm

Very nice pair of M91's you got there Robert.
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Re: Since the WWI treads are the only ones really active

Postby Niner » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:44 pm

Think I'll continue with this WWI string. Feel free ... anyone... to join in. Show us some weapon in your collection that could have been used in WWI and tell us something about it.

Today I thought I'd start with the disposable magazine group of rifles. The Nagant and the Mauser had enclosed magazines that were loaded from stripper clips. The Enfield had a detachable magazine but the British soldier was expected to load by stripper clip the same as if it weren't detachable. The British soldier could load twice as many rounds at the time as the Russians and Germans which must have seemed an encouragement....you know... one Tommy can kill twice as many Krauts before reloading as the Krauts could kill of his side.

The one I'm starting with is the Mannlicher-Carcano 1891 infantry rifle. Italy used this one in both WWI and WWII. It had a smaller barrel ring at the breech and fired a smaller caliber than the competition with a rimless round in 6.5x52. You inserted and locked in a loaded clip over a spring lever that pressed up through the clip forcing the ammo upward. When the last round was fired the U shape clip fell out the bottom. Kinda the opposite of the M1 Garand that when it fired the last round in a U shape clip it tossed the empty with a clink out the top of the open breech.

The thing most people remember about the Carcano is that Oswald used one to assassinate President Kennedy in 1963.
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Re: Since the WWI treads are the only ones really active

Postby Niner » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:52 pm

Here is a Carcano clip without the ammo. And with the ammo.
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Re: Since the WWI treads are the only ones really active

Postby Niner » Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:23 pm

Here's another of those load the full clip and discard the empty clip rifles. The Repetier-Gewehr M1895 with a design credit to Mannlicher. There were about 3.5 million made for Austria-Hungary. There was a shorter calvary version too. Later.. after WWI lots of the long rifles were cut down to carbine length.
Besides having a disposable ammo clip it also had a straight pull bolt. Pull back unccocked and push forward cocked. You could see a prominent cocking lever to the back that showed you it was cocked. The sights were set up for volley fire. 2400 paces was not something you actually aimed at. I think it was a mind fart left over from the days of the long bow when the masses of enemy lined up shoulder to shoulder and could be delt damage beyond eyeball to eyeball fighting range. A long distance rain of bullets idea that other weapons of the time still shared.

It fired a powerful bottle shaped 8mm cartridge... more powerful than the Carcano but not the same cartridge as the Mauser 8mm. It had an odd battle sight. Lift up the arm and the v at the bottom was 300 paces. Drop the sight blade flat and the v was 500 paces.

Both the carbine and the long rifle produce a decided kick to them when fired. By WWII they were considered second line weapons and the rifles were cut down to carbines to a large extent.
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Re: Since the WWI treads are the only ones really active

Postby NLMosin » Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:27 pm

Here are my WW1 rifles...
This one is a Finn Capture.
pix784879889.jpg

While this one is from the time frame it never went anywhere. On the bottom of the barrel is a reject date. Probably was killing whitetail during the war...
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This one scrubbed by the Balkans no doubt.
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Another Finn capture.
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One of the 100,000 built for the White War.
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Looking for a 1960 T53. Always wanted a Mosin as old as I am.... :lol:
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Re: Since the WWI treads are the only ones really active

Postby Niner » Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:54 am

Nice collection NLMosin. Thanks for contributing. Anybody else want to play.... Before I have to dig out something else to add to the string?
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Re: Since the WWI treads are the only ones really active

Postby joseyclosey » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:07 pm

You've covered the M95 already Robert but I thought I'd still add this pic of my Steyr with some of the ex mil 8X56R I use. One of my fave rifles.
Joe

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Last edited by joseyclosey on Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Since the WWI treads are the only ones really active

Postby Niner » Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:19 pm

Joe, your clips made me go back and check what I had shown before. I think I was showing another version of the Mannlicher clip that looks like the one in your photo. I found what I know is a Carcano clip and redid my earlier post. :oops:
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Re: Since the WWI treads are the only ones really active

Postby Niner » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:00 pm

The 1903 Springfield was the rifle of choice for the US entering into WWI. It had a bolt action that mirrored the Mauser...in fact Springfield Armory had to pay royalties to Mauser. It had that odd feature that converted from magazine fed to single shot that was military fashionable around the time it went into production. Note the On and Off feature. Off turned the magazine feed off. The British had a like feature with a lever cutting their magazine off. The 03 used a 30.06 cartridge... that way all nations could use something different thereby assuring that no other nation could capture and shoot their ammo I suspect. Being shot by ones own ammo would be adding insult to injury.

I don't have an O3 but I have the successor the 03A. The two were essentially the same ...except.. the sight on the 03 was an elaborate ladder affair with a collection of applications.. peep, V, v notch, whatever and wishful thinking out to many hundred yards. The 03A with furniture cast parts rather than the 03's machined had a simpler but much better singular peep sight. It also had a dial in windage adjustment. It wasn't used until after WWI. The 03A, however, continued in use into WWII and afterward in various ways meeting particular needs.

The US started their part of the war with the 03 but the numbers they had on hand wouldn't fill the bill so they adopted the 1917 Enfield which could be produced quicker by companies already geared up for it. A benefit of that previous "neutrality" . The caliber was changed to 30.06 and filled the supply gap. The US soldiers are said to have prefered , in no uncertain terms, the O3.

The O3 is on top and the 03A3 on bottom in the rifle photo.
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Re: Since the WWI threads are really active. A look at the weapons

Postby Niner » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:27 am

The Turks were shooting 8mm Mausers with the same version of 8mm ammo as the Germans. They had bought them on contract long before the war began so the Germans weren't subsidizing them. The Turk rifles in use came in different configurations. The 1893 model I own has a shorter bolt and is cock on closing in design. The 1903 has a longer bolt and is cock on opening. Without close examination they look the same. They have internal magazines and are very much the counterpart of the German issue rifle ...except for having a conventional flat sight instead of the roller coaster German version.

These earlier Turk Mausers, as opposed to those made in the 30's, had a noticable v indentation on the bolt entry side of the rifle ring. Made for an easier load of what must have been slightly longer overall length caused by a longer bullet that was eventually reduced.
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Re: Since the WWI threads are really active. A look at the weapons

Postby ArchFluffy » Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:17 pm

This thread is great!

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Re: Since the WWI threads are really active. A look at the weapons

Postby Niner » Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:11 pm

The Enfield entered the war with a cutoff to save ammo and ended without it. It also started the war with a rod "Mills Bomb" grenade launcher and finished up with a cup grenade launcher that would launch a grenade about 200 yards. The rod version damaged the rifling in the barrel and didn't have a predictable a distance. I'm showing a 1904 Enfield #1 MkIII with the cutoff and a 1914 model made as a wire wrap mills bomb launcher and without the cutoff.

http://inert-ord.net/brit/mills/pg3.html#m
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Re: Since the WWI threads are really active. A look at the weapons

Postby DuncaninFrance » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:09 pm

Actually, by the start of WWI the cut off was being used as a Safety Catch and not as a single round system.
I was not aware of this until I watched this video.

I highly recommend ALL the videos posted by Rob - britishmuzzleloaders - he is a great bloke and his presentations are superb.

He is a member on http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/ as I am............. :GBR:
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Re: Since the WWI threads are really active. A look at the weapons

Postby Niner » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:43 pm

Looks like the elimination of the magazine cut off came about in the updated MKIII* in 1916. Earlier versions with the slot were in some cases FTR'd to remove the cut off and left the slot. See Straton SMLE (No. 1) Rifles Mke 1 and Mk III.

I suspect the cut off when open for the magazine hung on things. Can you imagine ''going over the top" and banging the thing closed and then start shooting only to find a follow up shot was blocked by the damn thing closing off the magazine? Of course the whole single shot idea came down from the previous century when commanders were afraid of soldiers being wasteful of ammo and at the same time thought that it made the soldier take better aim.....also if a soldier from a defensive position needed to take occasional harassing pot shots he could get up and "charge" with a full magazine or have a full magazine if the enemy charged. Resupply on the battlefield was more difficult before trench warfare. After all, ammo supply trains didn't have to search for the troops. The firing line only moved a few hundred yards back and forth from one month to the next. And with the stripper clip it was as quick to reload as to move the single shot cut off back. :shock:
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Re: Since the WWI threads are really active. A look at the weapons

Postby Niner » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:55 pm

Two handguns. One is on the scrap heap of time and taken seriously only as a collectible curiosity. One is still being made, desired, and sold today. One is a 1895 Nagant that fires an odd and obsolete round and the other is a US M1911 firing a 45 caliber acp round still popular today. The Nagant was a wheel gun with no safety and slow loading side gate. The M1911 had a grip safety and a half cock safety and could be carried safely with a round in the chamber. It used a detachable magazine and you could carry more than one loaded magazine. The Nagant was double action and the Colt had to be brought to full cock on the first round. The 1911 fired a bigger man stopping round and seemed far more accurate to most shooters.
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Re: Since the WWI threads are really active. A look at the weapons

Postby Niner Delta » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:48 pm

I have a 1914 Nagant pistol and it is truly an odd duck. Besides what Robert mentioned, they are
a 7 round pistol, and when the hammer goes back, the cylinder moves forward and seals around the
rear of the barrel. The bullet is entirely inside the brass case. It's one of the few revolvers that a silencer
actually works on. There are those that say they were used by Soviet secret police to do quiet executions.
Surplus ammo works well, but the modern ammo is very weak, like shooting a .22 pistol......... almost.
Also have a .45 auto but it isn't a real one, a Llama Spanish wannabe, I can't afford a real one..... :(
Photo shows a surplus and a modern round.


.
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Re: Since the WWI threads are really active. A look at the weapons

Postby deadin » Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:06 pm

I understand that this one stayed in service until the end of WW2.

Dutch Model 1873 (New Model)

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Re: Since the WWI threads are really active. A look at the weapons

Postby PeterN2 » Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:45 pm

This is my 1918 dated Mark VI .455 Webley that was in service in WW1.

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Also I have a Colt New Service from WW1, also in .455.

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They are both in full working order, but I am allowed to hold as collectors items only and not to be fired.

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Re: Since the WWI threads are really active. A look at the weapons

Postby DuncaninFrance » Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:44 pm

Very very nice Peter, must be a real bummer not being able to shoot them, though :pirate:
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Re: Since the WWI threads are really active. A look at the weapons

Postby PeterN2 » Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:19 pm

It is a bit frustrating not being able to shoot them. I used to shoot the Webley before the ban, but I got the Colt from a friend who retired to Cyprus after the ban. He used to shoot it.
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Re: Since the WWI threads are really active. A look at the weapons

Postby MalcolmP » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:23 am

PeterdN2 wrote:It is a bit frustrating not being able to shoot them. I used to shoot the Webley before the ban, but I got the Colt from a friend who retired to Cyprus after the ban. He used to use https://www.danielleaubert.com/yoga-bur ... w-results/ the Yoga burn to shoot it.
Regards
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That's a nice collection you have.
Last edited by MalcolmP on Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Since the WWI threads are really active. A look at the weapons

Postby Niner » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:29 am

Welcome to the forums MalcolmP.
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Re: Since the WWI threads are really active. A look at the weapons

Postby Miller Tyme » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:22 pm

Here are a couple of more WW1 weapons not shown here so far
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1895 Winchester Russian Contract Musket
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1914 Izhevsk Dragoon
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Re: Since the WWI threads are really active. A look at the weapons

Postby ArchFluffy » Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:44 am

Nice lever action!

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Re: Since the WWI threads are really active. A look at the weapons

Postby Miller Tyme » Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:48 pm

ArchFluffy wrote:Nice lever action!

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Thanks Arch, have shot it once with some Czech reduced load practice rounds and it was a pure joy.
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Re: Since the WWI threads are really active. A look at the weapons

Postby Niner Delta » Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:00 pm

Those Czech practice rounds are great for low recoil. They are thin steel with a hollow lead insert.
Cut one apart a while back. They worked good out to 100 to 200 yards. But now they are gone,
haven't seen them for sale for a long time, luckily I still have a few thousand rounds of them left....... :D
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Re: Since the WWI threads are really active. A look at the weapons

Postby JuanWilson » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:32 pm

PeterN2 wrote:This is my 1918 dated Mark VI .455 Webley that was in service in WW1. I figured I'd post something milsurp related for a change. My focus to begin with is one of the US made New England Westinghouse Mosin Nagants. They were contracted by the British for the Russians and began being made in 1915 by the "neutral" United States to aid the Europeans in killing each other. alice took phenq https://theskinnyvibes.com/phenq-reviews-and-results/ for 30 days and the results are fantastic. Some made it to Russia out of a total production...just by Westinghouse and not counting Remington...of over 700,000 rifles. Note in the photos my "prized" NEW with the SA stamp on the side. That rifle has been through the mill in the early to mid 20th Century wars and changed ownership a few times. And note next to it, in two photos, an identical to it Imperial Tula made two years later in 1917 that ended up in Bulgaria at some juncture. The last photo is a group picture of three of the foot soldier weapons for three of the major players in WWI. The British SMLE made in 1904, Mosin Nagant ,USA made for Russia 1915, or there about, and German Mauser by Oberndorf 1918. If it were a barrel measuring contest, the Russians win by finger length.

The Imperial is the one with the sling rings in the stock.


I too have a Mark VI .455 Webley from service in WW1. Identical, but the condition of yours is better than mine. Proud to own one.
Last edited by JuanWilson on Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Since the WWI threads are really active. A look at the weapons

Postby DuncaninFrance » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:44 am

Welcome to the site Juan, hope you enjoy your visits. There is a lot of information on here.
Sundays some of us have a Skype conference call around 4pm EST if you are interested. Current team includes;
Alabama, Florida, France (me) , Scotland & Canada. :)
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