Webley & Enfield revolvers with accessories (image heavy)

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Drake
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Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:05 pm

Webley & Enfield revolvers with accessories (image heavy)

Post by Drake » Wed May 20, 2009 12:32 am

Finally getting around to this. Time to take a closer look at the Webley Mark VI .455, Webley Mark IV .38, Enfield No2 MkI .38 and Enfield No2 MkI** .38.

First, a family photo:

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A comparison of the Mark VI with the Mark IV along with boxes of WWII-dated ammunition. The similarities are obvious but the Mark IV has a number of improvements over the older pistol. The Mark VI is chambered in .455 Webley while the smaller Mark IV is chambered in .380 Revolver which can be interchanged with .38 S&W.

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Left side of the Mark IV. Notice the holster guides (the wedge-shaped piece ahead of the cylinder) which are fixed to the barrel. The cylinder cam is a separate piece mounted below the holster guides.

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The firing pin is machined into the face of the Mark VI's hammer.

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The Webley Mark IV's cylinder cam and holster guides are one piece which are mounted to the barrel assembly. The cylinder cam lever screw has a much smaller slot compared to the Mark VI. The large slot was intended to allow soldiers to use a coin to field strip the pistol.

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The Mark IV has a pivoting firing pin mounted to the hammer's face. This allows a more direct primer hit rather than the slightly oblique strike from the older revolver. The front sight is fixed to the barrel on the Mark IV where it was removable on the Mark VI.

The the barrel hinge pin screws are identical on this revolver, where the left side screw is larger on the Mark VI.

The Mark IV's grips also have the unmistakable "Webley" logo. Note the 'WAR FINISH' stamp on this side of the revolver. This was done as measure to prevent possible customers from being too disappointed in the company based on their wartime production.

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The recoil plate, cylinder bolt and cylinder stop of the Mark VI.

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These parts on the Mark IV are similar, just scaled down for the smaller pistol.

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This is the recoil plate, pawl and cylinder bolt of the No2 MkI Enfield. The Enfield design omits the cylinder stop which is integral to the Webley trigger design. This is the reason for the 'gutters' on the rear edge of Webley cylinders.

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Last edited by Drake on Wed May 20, 2009 2:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
Drake
Regular visitor
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:05 pm

Re: Webley & Enfield Revolvers (image intensive)

Post by Drake » Wed May 20, 2009 12:41 am

Moving on to the Enfield vs Webley.

Above is the No2 MkI Enfield revolver, below is the Mark IV Webley. Both are chambered in .380 Revolver, the service cartridge at the time.

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The No2 Enfield looks similar externally but dimensions differ enough that no parts are interchangeable. The story goes that Webley was approached to make a .38 caliber revolver to replace the venerable .455 Mark VI. Once the revolver was designed and completed, the revolver was taken to the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield and a substitute design produced in-house which was accepted as the service pistol.

Webley & Scott brought suit against the British government for £2250 for the costs involved with the design and production of the Mark IV pistol. The courts eventually denied their claim and ruled the Enfield pistol was designed by Captain Boys (designer of the Boys anti-tank rifle) with only assistance by Webley & Scott. They were awarded £1250 by the Royal Commission on Awards to Inventors at some point later.

During WWII Enfield found themselves unable to produce enough No2 revolvers to satisfy the demand. To add insult to injury, the British government once again contacted Webley & Scott about their Mark IV revolver. It was put into production with a 'war finish' and adopted as a substitute standard for the No2 MkI revolver to supplement Enfield's production.

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Left side view of the No2 Enfield. Most parts are analogous to the Webley Mark IV pistol.

An arguable improvement over the Webley design is the removable sideplate. This makes disassembly and reassembly of the lockwork much simpler.

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The right side of the No2 MkI has the Enfield roll mark.

Other external differences from the Mark IV include an integral trigger guard. The Webley pistols have a guard which is mounted with two screws to the bottom of the grip frame.

The cylinder lacks the cylinder stop 'gutters' at the rear edge. The cylinder flutes are also longer.

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The cylinder cam lever screw has been moved to the right side of the pistol. I'll explain the logic of this in a moment.
Last edited by Drake on Wed May 20, 2009 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Drake
Regular visitor
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:05 pm

Re: Webley & Enfield Revolvers (image intensive)

Post by Drake » Wed May 20, 2009 12:46 am

Left side view of the Webley Mark IV with grip panels removed.

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Left side view of the Enfield No2 MkI with grip panels removed. Slight differences in the main spring and mainspring auxiliary (aka the rebound lever) are apparent and the seam of the side plate is visible.

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Side plate removed from the Enfield No2 MkI.

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Here is a closeup of the single action notch on the MkI hammer. If you look closely behind the hammer you can see the thin metal bar against the frame. This is the hammer safety lever.

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For sake of clarity, I've marked the parts in question.

The red arrow marks the hammer safety lever. The yellow arrow marks the recess in the hammer which fits around the safety lever when it is disengaged. This safety blocks the hammer from dropping fully unless the trigger is held to the rear.

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Here is a view of the hammer safety bar in the raised position.

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This is the Webley Mark IV. It has no similar safety bar.

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Drake
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Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:05 pm

Re: Webley & Enfield Revolvers (image intensive)

Post by Drake » Wed May 20, 2009 12:57 am

Now a comparison of two Enfields.

Above is the Enfield No2 MkI**, below is the Enfield No2 MkI.

The MkI was produced from 1927 until 1938. This is the standard model with the hammer spur. It was adopted as the standard service pistol in 1932.

The MkI* was produced from 1938 until 1941. This model lacks the hammer spur and single action notch. Many No2 MkI's were updated to this standard by changing the hammer and trigger.

The MkI** was produced from 1942 until 1945. This is the MkI* but also lacks the hammer safety.

After 1945 many MkI**'s were retrofitted to MkI* standards, mine was not.

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The No2 MkI** with side plate removed.

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This is the MkI** hammer. Note the omitted single action notch (MkI* standard) and omitted hammer safety notch (MkI** standard).

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MkI* trigger. These were used in conjunction with MkI* or MkI** hammers to remove single action firing and omit the hammer drop safety. The hole for the drop safety bar is missing from the trigger.

This trigger will work with a MkI spur hammer to restore single action function to a double-action only pistol.

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An old comparison photo of the MkI and MkI** hammers.

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The MkI and MkI* triggers.

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Here is the interior of the MkI**'s frame. The slot for the drop safety lever is not machined in these pistols so they cannot accept the safety parts.

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Now, about the change in placement of the takedown screw on the Enfield No2... I'll pick up where I left off. To field strip the Webley Mark IV or Mark VI revolver you must remove the cylinder cam lever fixing screw.

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Open the revolver fully until the extractor star snaps back into place.
Remove the cam lever fixing screw.
Rotate the cam lever upward until the cylinder is released.
Remove cylinder from the revolver.

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The Enfield revolver looks similar... but the cam lever fixing screw is not in the usual position.

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This is the screw in question.

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The screw does not need to be fully removed, just unscrewed enough to free the cam lever on the opposite side.

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With the revolver open and extractor down, rotate the cam lever upward until the cylinder is released. If one tries to rotate the cam lever without the extractor star in the lowered position it will the cylinder from the barrel assembly.

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The benefit to this system is obvious. Since the screw is retained on the frame a soldier cannot lose it while cleaning his weapon.

http://hooverae.com/upload/files/190509/9039676.jpeg[/pic]
Drake
Regular visitor
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:05 pm

Re: Webley & Enfield Revolvers (image intensive)

Post by Drake » Wed May 20, 2009 1:35 am

Some more comparison images.

First the .455 Webley Mark VI.

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The .38 Webley Mark IV.

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The .38 Enfield No2 MkI. Note the serrated backstrap on this model. This was omitted in the MkI** model.

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The .38 Enfield No2 MkI**. Note the smooth backstrap. These walnut finger groove grips were introduced in 1938 and were replaced with bakelite versions at some point in the late 1930's or early 1940's.

This example originally wore bakelite grips with a steel disk and is dated 1944. I exchanged them for walnut grips from a parted out gun dated 1938.

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Some close ups of markings.

Here is a cleaner shot of the No2 MkI's roll mark. No2 MkI*'s have this roll mark as well with the '*' added afterward as the size and depth never seems to match.

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The No2 MkI** has very spartan markings. It is marked simply 'I**'. The symbol which looks like a merged D and E is Enfield's factory stamp.

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Left side stamps on the Webley Mark IV.

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W&S information on the top strap.

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Country of origin, Webley's winged bullet logo, and 'War Finish' disclaimer on the right side.

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Beginning in 1921 these revolvers were produced by RSAF-Enfield. These have the usual Enfield roll mark on the right side of the frame rather than Webley's stamps on the left side of the frame and barrel.

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Webley's patent and model information on the frame.

The Mark VI was in production from 1915 until 1923 and they were declared obsolete in 1932 with the adoption of the Enfield No2 MkI revolver. Regardless, many were still used during WWII. This particular revolver was carried by Lieutenant John Seymour Pears during the invasion of Italy in 1943. His name and address is on the backstrap. Unfortunately since WWII records aren't public information yet I can't request a copy of his medal card or any other information.

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Drake
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Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:05 pm

Re: Webley & Enfield Revolvers (image intensive)

Post by Drake » Wed May 20, 2009 1:49 am

Changing gears a bit, here is a closer look at the Prideaux loader.

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A good shot of the stampings. P-L is short for 'Prideaux Loader', as the earlier models were marked.

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To load the device, push the spring plate fully downward, then press a cartridge between each set of 'fingers'.

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To load the revolver, position it on the cylinder - the noses of the cartridges will easily locate in the chambers.

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Press down on the handle and the spring plate will retract into the body, releasing the cartridges into the chambers.

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The collapsed loader.

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Drake
Regular visitor
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:05 pm

Re: Webley & Enfield Revolvers (image intensive)

Post by Drake » Wed May 20, 2009 2:09 am

Here is a Webley & Scott .22 Rimfire Long adapter. I'm not sure of the proper terminology, but devices like this for the Martini rifles were called 'aiming tubes'.

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The Webley & Scott winged bullet is stamped on the left side of the body. This is chambered for .22 Long, not .22 Long Rifle (at least as far as I can tell). For what it's worth, it will fire .22 Long Rifle just the same as the case lengths are identical - the differences lie in velocity and bullet weight.

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I'm not sure if '1946' is a serial number or a date of manufacture.

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The device carries its own rear sight, raised slightly above the barrel latch sight. It is drift adjustable for windage.

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The device has an automatic ejector which operates upon opening.

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It's an entertaining experience to fire: single loading cartridges and automatic ejection - not to mention the lack of recoil.

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A comparison of the Mark VI muzzles.

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Drake
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Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:05 pm

Re: Webley & Enfield revolvers with accessories (image heavy)

Post by Drake » Wed May 20, 2009 2:27 am

Some photos of WWII Pattern 37 webgear.

First is a second pattern 'tanker' holster with the Enfield No2 MkI**.

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An officer rig of P.37 gear. This carries a .38 revolver, ammunition, compass, binoculars and canteen.

http://hooverae.com/upload/files/200509/3636985.jpeg[/pic]

The Compass, Magnetic, Marching, Mark 1.

http://hooverae.com/upload/files/200509/3701441.jpeg[/pic]

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The Bino, Prism No2 Mk3, x6 magnification.

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The right lens has a built in rangefinder.

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The degrees are stamped onto the rear of the body.

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The canteen's cork plug.

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The Enfield No2 MkI with box of ammunition.

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A shot of the WWI officer rig I've put together. The leather parts are reproduction, after stripping the finish and dying they match quite well.

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A few artsy photos.

This repro Pritchard doesn't quite fit the revolver properly, I'm hoping to dig up a better example soon. This was taken before I redyed the whistle's strap. The whistle was made by J. Hudson in Birmingham.

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The Enfield No2 with gear.

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Lastly a shot of some issue ammunition. I need to dig up some broad-arrow .22 Long ammo now!

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That about wraps it up.
PeterN2
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Re: Webley & Enfield revolvers with accessories (image heavy)

Post by PeterN2 » Wed May 20, 2009 2:33 pm

Wow, what an excellent set of photos of some great revolvers. Thanks for posting them.
Regards
Peter.
Drake
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Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:05 pm

Re: Webley & Enfield revolvers with accessories (image heavy)

Post by Drake » Wed May 20, 2009 3:13 pm

There is just something about these old top-breaks that fascinates me. Utilitarian and elegant at the same time.

By the way, WWI buffs may take notice of the dates on the .455 ammo wrappers..
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