Last Sunday I left home for Bisley having previously booked one of the huts there for the Civilian Service rifle meeting which runs from Monday to Thursday in the first week of the 136th Imperial Meeting. I did the usual checks before I left to make sure I had enough food for the four days, this year as in other years I bought four British Army “rat packs” which are 24 hour ration packs of the boil in the bag variety. Nice and easy to cater for and the quality of food in the foil pouches is I have to say very good compared to the rat packs of my own service career over 30 years ago.
Crawford Cabins my home for four days
<img src=http://www.fototime.com/{0DC81D68-4A52- ... icture.JPG [/pic]
The joys of a boil in the bag Chicken Madras and a can of “Auntie Stella”.
<img src=http://www.fototime.com/{908BBC47-3C83- ... icture.JPG [/pic]
I also invested in one of those little fridges to keep my milk, butter and “Auntie Stella” cold. All cooking was to be done outside my room under the covered walk way with a small gas cooking stove. Incidentally the fridge packed up after an hours use!
Monday morning came I and found myself in the butts for the first detail with three mates who always shoot the first three days of the meeting, our time came at 10.30 and we made our way on to the firing point to shoot three matches, “The Standing”, “Bisley Bullet” and “The Sitting”.
I wont bore you all with how I did and what the wind was like etc because I didn’t take any pictures to illustrate the shooting for the first two days of the meeting as it was being run by the Army and there was never enough time to take my camera out of my bergan to use it.
On the Tuesday evening we went into Pirbright camp which is situated next to Bisley to shoot a “moving man” competition, this comprised a “running man” target which is sometimes referred to as a Russian Soldier. We were all given four sighters and the targets which were a hundred yards away went across our front in what I can only describe as quick and slow time. I managed to get four very good sighters onto the centre of the body but when I came to shoot my “10 to count” I didn’t fare so well hitting the poor sod twice in the heel of each of the two targets!
It was good enough though to give me a gold medal in the No 4 Enfield class.
Wednesday was the day that the British Army enter teams of 6 in what can only be described as an historic match called the Methuen after Lord Methuen who instituted the match it was first shot between the Royal Artillery, the Royal Engineers and the Royal Marines but these days the match is open to all regiments and in the last 6 years civilian teams also may enter.
I was shooting for the Lee Enfield Rifle Association having shot for a place earlier in the year at one of the monthly practises.
The course of fire is 5 practices:
Practice 1:
300 yards prone 10 shots 1 exposure of 60 seconds. Target figure 12
Practice 2:
(Fire and movement) 300 yards prone 2 shots 1 exposure of 15 seconds
15 second pause 1 second flash (target is shown for one second) exposure than 30 seconds to move to 200 yard point. At 200 yards 4 shots 2 exposures of 6 seconds sitting or squatting (10 seconds between exposures) and then 15 second pause; 1 second flash exposure than 30 seconds to move to 100 yard firing point 4 shots 2 exposures of 6 seconds standing. Target figure 12
Practice 3:
100 yards 10 shots standing then kneeling or squatting 1 exposure of 40 seconds on a figure 12 C target.
Practice 4:
200 yards 1 exposure of 40 seconds sitting kneeling or squatting. Target 2x figure 11 (10 shots, 5 shots per target)
Practice 5:
300 yards prone 10 shots, 10 exposures of 3 seconds (over 5 minutes!) Target figure 12.
The LERA “Methuen Headquarters” being looked after a son of one of the competitors.
<img src=http://www.fototime.com/{D0C68B4B-E004- ... icture.JPG [/pic]
Two Australian soldiers came over to talk Enfield’s with us.
<img src=http://www.fototime.com/{74E7DE96-B8EE- ... icture.JPG [/pic]
This was the civilian firing point for the day.
<img src=http://www.fototime.com/{7D6B9F44-5A31- ... icture.JPG [/pic]
Looking towards the Army firing point, note the South African flag.
<img src=http://www.fototime.com/{150903F4-1556- ... icture.JPG [/pic]
Ghurka’s at the prize giving.
<img src=http://www.fototime.com/{97ADEAD2-ABDC- ... icture.JPG [/pic]
Sultan of Oman forces with a British “contract” officer seconded to the Sultanate wearing the same colourful uniform as his men.
<img src=http://www.fototime.com/{DEBD04E5-5A56- ... icture.JPG [/pic]
The South Africans made what I think is their first visit to Bisley this year.
<img src=http://www.fototime.com/{518AD1FF-30D0- ... icture.JPG [/pic]
I didn't see the anybody from the Irish Defence Force this year which was a shame and whilst I noticed one lone United States Marine Corp soldier whom I didn't notice actually shoot there was no US team, commitments in the "sand pit" being the obvious reason I suppose.
All in all a very good service rifle meeting this year, although I did notice that on the first and second day there were fewer Enfield SMLE's and No 4 entry's than previous years and a lot more “little black rifles”, even some LERA members have bought AR15 and M16 derivatives so they can be more competitive in this meeting.
Bloody sad if you ask me!
2005 British Army Service Rifle Meeting at Bisley
Moderators: DuncaninFrance, Niner Delta, Niner, joseyclosey, Miller Tyme, PeterN2, dhtaxi, Aughnanure, blackisler
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Strangely Brown
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2005 British Army Service Rifle Meeting at Bisley
Last edited by Strangely Brown on Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mick
That was a really good picture post Mick!
Talk about a gathering of the old Empire.....well, guess they are all independent now....... but very colorful bunch gathered there anyway.
Your quarters remind me of the pictures that Brass Rat posted of his in the US at another famous meet.
Your quarters remind me of the pictures that Brass Rat posted of his in the US at another famous meet.
Mick, Thanks so much for the story and pictures...I'd love to participate one day. 
I guess I've got this wrong, but I thought the AR or M16 (or perhaps any auto loader) were manual load in the UK anyway...what's the advantage? It's been my opinion that I haven't lost a match because of my rifle...someone else just had the 'edge' on that day.
take Care, Brad
I guess I've got this wrong, but I thought the AR or M16 (or perhaps any auto loader) were manual load in the UK anyway...what's the advantage? It's been my opinion that I haven't lost a match because of my rifle...someone else just had the 'edge' on that day.
take Care, Brad
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Strangely Brown
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Niner, yes there is more than a passing resembalance to Camp Perry in the pictures of the accomodation. When Brass Rat posted that report back on the old forum it struck me then that most ranges must have a similiar style of accomodation around the world.
Brad, the main advantage is the cartridge.
When you get on to the firing point of this meeting you get issued with ammunition if you are shooting 5.56mm or 7.62mm, but if you are a .303 shooter you have to provide your own!
The meeting being an Army one is primarily for the isssue SA80 but the NRA for the civilian entry have four classes:
a. SMLE
b. No4
c. Any/Iron
d. Any/Optic
With differant classes you can be competitive in your own field, SMLE ect.
However with things like the "Queen Mary" practice 4 which is a rundown from 500 yards to 100 yards firing at each 100 yard point the ability of a straight trajectory cartridge takes the thinking out of having to adjust sights.
I had to shoot and then say to myself "5 clicks down!" and before we were up and running make sure I had adjusted them for the next firing point.
The other reason that a lot of people have moved over to "staight pull" rifles (it sounds obscene taking the semi auto function away!) is that a lot of UK shooters are much older than their American counterparts because we are a dying breed as new blood doesn't come into the sport (Brian the Brit is 86!) and most of us have tired eyes so the class: "Any/Optics" does have some attraction for the old farts.
It was interesting that one of the civilian winners was an ex para who used an L96 sniper rifle and over the week amassed a huge score and did very well on the rundown even with such a large heavy rifle.
Brad, the main advantage is the cartridge.
When you get on to the firing point of this meeting you get issued with ammunition if you are shooting 5.56mm or 7.62mm, but if you are a .303 shooter you have to provide your own!
The meeting being an Army one is primarily for the isssue SA80 but the NRA for the civilian entry have four classes:
a. SMLE
b. No4
c. Any/Iron
d. Any/Optic
With differant classes you can be competitive in your own field, SMLE ect.
However with things like the "Queen Mary" practice 4 which is a rundown from 500 yards to 100 yards firing at each 100 yard point the ability of a straight trajectory cartridge takes the thinking out of having to adjust sights.
I had to shoot and then say to myself "5 clicks down!" and before we were up and running make sure I had adjusted them for the next firing point.
The other reason that a lot of people have moved over to "staight pull" rifles (it sounds obscene taking the semi auto function away!) is that a lot of UK shooters are much older than their American counterparts because we are a dying breed as new blood doesn't come into the sport (Brian the Brit is 86!) and most of us have tired eyes so the class: "Any/Optics" does have some attraction for the old farts.
It was interesting that one of the civilian winners was an ex para who used an L96 sniper rifle and over the week amassed a huge score and did very well on the rundown even with such a large heavy rifle.
Mick
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stripperclip
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joseyclosey
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Brian the Brit
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Range Safety?
An interesting post S-B, you cheeky young bounder! I definitely feel another grudge match or two coming on. Martini Henrys at 200 yards (if ever my mould and cases arrive) is a distinct possibility.
Your last photo is rather interesting, Mick, and raises a couple of questions. On military ranges, as I recently had drummed into me, we civilian shooters must abide by very strict safety rules to prevent accidents. "Aiming exercises", for example, are only allowed on the firing point and any such activity behind the firing point "must be severely dealt with. It is IRRELEVANT as an excuse that the bolt is out or a breech flag is inserted."
So what is the squaddie with the rifle doing pointing it at his seated mate's head when both are behind the firing point?
Another point that came out on the NRA course was the requirement that:
"all loading, unloading, stoppage and inspection drills should be carried out with the firearm held horizontally. The barrel of the firearm must not be held at a quadrant of elevation of more than 70 mils above the horizontal. This will ensure that any negligent discharge is contained within the ricochet area. Shots fired with a QE of more than 70 mils can be expected to pass over the stop butt and travel beyond the danger area."
As 70 mils is approximately 4 degrees, it would have been interesting to have seen how the rifles with bipods in the foreground were handled on the firing point. I bet they were rested on their butts as shown to be cleared?
Is the RCOing more lax at military shoots? I certainly didn't get that impression at the joint LERA/military ones that I attended when I was a member.
Brian
Your last photo is rather interesting, Mick, and raises a couple of questions. On military ranges, as I recently had drummed into me, we civilian shooters must abide by very strict safety rules to prevent accidents. "Aiming exercises", for example, are only allowed on the firing point and any such activity behind the firing point "must be severely dealt with. It is IRRELEVANT as an excuse that the bolt is out or a breech flag is inserted."
So what is the squaddie with the rifle doing pointing it at his seated mate's head when both are behind the firing point?
Another point that came out on the NRA course was the requirement that:
"all loading, unloading, stoppage and inspection drills should be carried out with the firearm held horizontally. The barrel of the firearm must not be held at a quadrant of elevation of more than 70 mils above the horizontal. This will ensure that any negligent discharge is contained within the ricochet area. Shots fired with a QE of more than 70 mils can be expected to pass over the stop butt and travel beyond the danger area."
As 70 mils is approximately 4 degrees, it would have been interesting to have seen how the rifles with bipods in the foreground were handled on the firing point. I bet they were rested on their butts as shown to be cleared?
Is the RCOing more lax at military shoots? I certainly didn't get that impression at the joint LERA/military ones that I attended when I was a member.
Brian
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Strangely Brown
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Lax RO'ing?
I wouldn't suggest it's lax Brian but it is very differant.
You are cleared before you start at Bisley by the military but I don't know if they follow the same procedure on a military range.
The major differance is in their rifles which when cleared they are told to "ease springs" which means the working parts (bolt) goes forward.
There is no such thing as breech flag in the Army so when cleared thats it!
I think we as civies overdo the safety bit...........................what!
I suppose you can not over do safety at all but one has to bear in mind that weapon training is part and parcel of what a squaddie does, just as you lecture students and I flog cameras to an un suspecting public.
The last picture shows a British Soldier being shown a South African (it's a woman on the ground!) rifle but in the Army it would be regarded as churlish not to be able to look and play at a weapon regardless if it were on the firing point or not.
If you ever share a range with special forces it's interesting that they do not have an RO in the sense that we do and they clear their own weapons, this makes sense because on active service you do not have RO's!
Regarding the use of aiming the rifle off the firing point, I have noticed that when we want to see who scored what on the target we reach for a pair of binoculars, well Tommy Atkins doesn't own a pair cos he aint an orficer. So he uses his Susat sight on his rifle and to that he has to aim it.
In fact on the Methuen run down at Bisley the civilian shooter has a spotter behind him with a pair of binoculars, just as it was done before the last war.
The Regular Army teams that enter the Methuen have a spotter but he (or she) just use the Susat sight on their rifle.
You are cleared before you start at Bisley by the military but I don't know if they follow the same procedure on a military range.
The major differance is in their rifles which when cleared they are told to "ease springs" which means the working parts (bolt) goes forward.
There is no such thing as breech flag in the Army so when cleared thats it!
I think we as civies overdo the safety bit...........................what!
I suppose you can not over do safety at all but one has to bear in mind that weapon training is part and parcel of what a squaddie does, just as you lecture students and I flog cameras to an un suspecting public.
The last picture shows a British Soldier being shown a South African (it's a woman on the ground!) rifle but in the Army it would be regarded as churlish not to be able to look and play at a weapon regardless if it were on the firing point or not.
If you ever share a range with special forces it's interesting that they do not have an RO in the sense that we do and they clear their own weapons, this makes sense because on active service you do not have RO's!
Regarding the use of aiming the rifle off the firing point, I have noticed that when we want to see who scored what on the target we reach for a pair of binoculars, well Tommy Atkins doesn't own a pair cos he aint an orficer. So he uses his Susat sight on his rifle and to that he has to aim it.
In fact on the Methuen run down at Bisley the civilian shooter has a spotter behind him with a pair of binoculars, just as it was done before the last war.
The Regular Army teams that enter the Methuen have a spotter but he (or she) just use the Susat sight on their rifle.
Mick
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Brian the Brit
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Fixing of magazines?
Interesting stuff, Mick!
Thanks for the insight into the military way of doing things. Clearly these guys are the professionals and have to be competent to handle their weapons safely in the field so things are bound to be done differently, particularly with competitors from different countries. I just thought that in view of all the hoo hah in the press every time an accident occurs that involves the military they would be ultra cautious when shooting alongside civilians.
One other question - what is the military procedure for fixing the loaded magazine to the rifle? I ask this because our ex-military NRA instructor commented on how strange he personally finds it to watch us target-shooting civilians fix our magazines to our Lee Enfields with the bolts open.
He said that as we customarily give the base of the mag a slap to ensure that it has engaged we as likely as not partially dislodge the top round which then misfeeds when we shove the bolt foreward. His advice was to close the bolt first and then attach the mag. This way the top round cannot misfeed.
Does anyone have any views on this? Would it be acceptable practice at a civilian shoot supervised by an NRA RCO or is it a purely military procedure?
Yours in a constant quest for enlightenment,
Brian
Thanks for the insight into the military way of doing things. Clearly these guys are the professionals and have to be competent to handle their weapons safely in the field so things are bound to be done differently, particularly with competitors from different countries. I just thought that in view of all the hoo hah in the press every time an accident occurs that involves the military they would be ultra cautious when shooting alongside civilians.
One other question - what is the military procedure for fixing the loaded magazine to the rifle? I ask this because our ex-military NRA instructor commented on how strange he personally finds it to watch us target-shooting civilians fix our magazines to our Lee Enfields with the bolts open.
He said that as we customarily give the base of the mag a slap to ensure that it has engaged we as likely as not partially dislodge the top round which then misfeeds when we shove the bolt foreward. His advice was to close the bolt first and then attach the mag. This way the top round cannot misfeed.
Does anyone have any views on this? Would it be acceptable practice at a civilian shoot supervised by an NRA RCO or is it a purely military procedure?
Yours in a constant quest for enlightenment,
Brian
Loading
Enfield mags are hard to place on a rifle with the bolt closed, as you have to squeeze the top round against the bolt in order to get the magazine latch to engage - and you know how very tight some mags are!
Military drill was changed with the advent of the semi-auto rifle, and now diverges sharply from civilian practice.
The military drill "load" means place a loaded magazine onto a weapon which has bolt forward, springs eased and safety applied. A military RCO therefore is alarmed when civvies place a loaded magazine onto a rifle with the bolt open (particularly if they then close the bolt and chamber a round!).
"Ready" (or a range command such as "300") is the order to cock the weapon and chamber a round (unless its a bolt-rear wpn like a GPMG), but leave the safety applied.
"Watch and shoot", etc, is the order allowing safety off and firing to commence.
"Make Safe!" is the military classic which gives NRA RCOs a heart-attack. This command is used frequently in military competition and is defined as "a full unload, followed by a load". The firer unloads and eases springs, and then replaces a loaded magazine onto the weapon.
As has been noted, military practice is to clear weapons before a range practice, then clear & close bolts/ease springs before leaving the point - thereafter bimbling around with a weapon with a closed bolt. Potential hazards are avoided since another military drill is to check and clear any weapon picked up or handled - which may involve dry-firing "in a safe direction" at the rear of the firing point, etc.
From a military viewpoint, civilian NRA safety procedures seem faintly ridiculous, but te key difference is that soldiers arrive together at a range as an organised body of men (ahem, and/or women, of course...) and are initially cleared en masse. Civilian shooters, on the other hand.......
Military drill was changed with the advent of the semi-auto rifle, and now diverges sharply from civilian practice.
The military drill "load" means place a loaded magazine onto a weapon which has bolt forward, springs eased and safety applied. A military RCO therefore is alarmed when civvies place a loaded magazine onto a rifle with the bolt open (particularly if they then close the bolt and chamber a round!).
"Ready" (or a range command such as "300") is the order to cock the weapon and chamber a round (unless its a bolt-rear wpn like a GPMG), but leave the safety applied.
"Watch and shoot", etc, is the order allowing safety off and firing to commence.
"Make Safe!" is the military classic which gives NRA RCOs a heart-attack. This command is used frequently in military competition and is defined as "a full unload, followed by a load". The firer unloads and eases springs, and then replaces a loaded magazine onto the weapon.
As has been noted, military practice is to clear weapons before a range practice, then clear & close bolts/ease springs before leaving the point - thereafter bimbling around with a weapon with a closed bolt. Potential hazards are avoided since another military drill is to check and clear any weapon picked up or handled - which may involve dry-firing "in a safe direction" at the rear of the firing point, etc.
From a military viewpoint, civilian NRA safety procedures seem faintly ridiculous, but te key difference is that soldiers arrive together at a range as an organised body of men (ahem, and/or women, of course...) and are initially cleared en masse. Civilian shooters, on the other hand.......