Hey guys,
I'm new here but here seems to be the place for learning about M-Ns. I've seen all the "common" stuff out there but stumbled on the first Chinese M-44 (Type 53?) at a local pawn shop the other day. At $170 the price seemed about right so I looked it over. All numbers matched EXCEPT the bolt & working the action took quite a bit of effort. The mis-matched bolt in & of itself didn't bother me more than the difficulty in working the action. So, the question is whether it's worth the asking price, talking down the price or simply passing on it altogether. Any & all comments/opinions are welcome,
Netherwolf
Chinese 44/53
Moderator: Miller Tyme
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netherwolf
- Posts: 3
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Chinese 44/53
Last edited by netherwolf on Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Chinese 44/53
Welcome to the site Netherwolf. Interesting question. I'm sure you will get some surmises on the value.
My first thoughts are that the Chinese Nagants are not often found, since all the M44's of recent decades come from Europe, so that gives it a plus value over the European ones. My second thought, since it is a pawn shop, is could this be a war trophy? Bolt action rifles were allowed war trophy's from Vietnam. That would jack the price to what is asked and probably more if this could be proved.
I think I'd go back and take a look at the barrel around the front sight and the receiver and look for an import mark. If no mark, I'd buy it for whatever price I could negotiate. I wouldn't worry about the bolt not matching. In Nagants finding one that is all matching is like looking for a needle in a haystack. However, a bolt that doesn't want to open is a negative as you state. A replacement bolt can be gotten for the sake of shooting. This, of course, would play into what your negotiation would be for the rifle as it is and be leverage for a lower price.
This is just my 2 cents as just a collector and no expert.
My first thoughts are that the Chinese Nagants are not often found, since all the M44's of recent decades come from Europe, so that gives it a plus value over the European ones. My second thought, since it is a pawn shop, is could this be a war trophy? Bolt action rifles were allowed war trophy's from Vietnam. That would jack the price to what is asked and probably more if this could be proved.
I think I'd go back and take a look at the barrel around the front sight and the receiver and look for an import mark. If no mark, I'd buy it for whatever price I could negotiate. I wouldn't worry about the bolt not matching. In Nagants finding one that is all matching is like looking for a needle in a haystack. However, a bolt that doesn't want to open is a negative as you state. A replacement bolt can be gotten for the sake of shooting. This, of course, would play into what your negotiation would be for the rifle as it is and be leverage for a lower price.
This is just my 2 cents as just a collector and no expert.
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oldironsights
- Sustaining Member
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Re: Chinese 44/53
Netherwolf, I have run across few Chinese M44/53's, but the ones I have handled were in poor condition. I don't recall having looked further to see if the parts matched since the bores, stocks & metal were in such rough shape.
Those that I saw like that were either just over or under $100.00 US.
I would have the pawn shop owner take note at how difficult the action cycles, how it is mismatched & offer him/her just $100.00 US. I doubt he/she will have a better offer. Mostly Mosin collectors will buy these, with an occasional Bubba looking for a cheap truck gun.
Lee, aka candyman has more knowledge of the Chinese type 53.
Perhaps he will include his opinion.
Those that I saw like that were either just over or under $100.00 US.
I would have the pawn shop owner take note at how difficult the action cycles, how it is mismatched & offer him/her just $100.00 US. I doubt he/she will have a better offer. Mostly Mosin collectors will buy these, with an occasional Bubba looking for a cheap truck gun.
Lee, aka candyman has more knowledge of the Chinese type 53.
Perhaps he will include his opinion.
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Help save this retired fighting ship from the scrapyard;
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Re: Chinese 44/53
I've seen one...and it looked like someone ran a tank over it 
it was about fifteen years ago,the shop owner said it was something like $70 or $90 if I wanted it,I didn't even pick it up one look was enough.
You'd have to do more then "bubba" the thing to make it decent,all I could say is it'd look nice hanging on a wall.
I did buy the last fifteen rounds of 7.62X54 he had,I thought I might get a Mosin soon,well I never did I'm about to change that and I need to find that ammo,I'm sure it's Chinese and was on some brass chargers.
it was about fifteen years ago,the shop owner said it was something like $70 or $90 if I wanted it,I didn't even pick it up one look was enough.You'd have to do more then "bubba" the thing to make it decent,all I could say is it'd look nice hanging on a wall.
I did buy the last fifteen rounds of 7.62X54 he had,I thought I might get a Mosin soon,well I never did I'm about to change that and I need to find that ammo,I'm sure it's Chinese and was on some brass chargers.
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."-Lovecraft.
Re: Chinese 44/53
The Chinese Type 53's are well built and most are well used. They have some of the slickest actions when it comes to M44s.
The Chinese were about to scrap what they had left when a US buyer bought a lot of them back in the early 90s. Most of the rifles were shipped with the bolts removed. It is rare to find an all matching Type 53.
Omega was one of the importers that got in a bunch of the Type 53s in the 90's. They sold off all the nice ones and then just boxed up the rest. About two years ago they started selling them again for $34 plus $16 shipping. Most of these guns were very dirty and most had bad bores. There were some that cleaned up very nice.
You will find some Russian M44 parts on some Type 53s, the Russian did supply them with parts.
I bought mine in a privite sale for $100 a little over two years ago. Some said I was crazy for spending so much at the time but the gun I bought was an all numbers matching rifle with all Chinese parts. My rifle is dated 1954.12, the .12 stands for December.
I did look at a very clean Type 53 in a gun shop in Moss Point MS. last year. The shop owner wanted $300 for it.
The Chinese were about to scrap what they had left when a US buyer bought a lot of them back in the early 90s. Most of the rifles were shipped with the bolts removed. It is rare to find an all matching Type 53.
Omega was one of the importers that got in a bunch of the Type 53s in the 90's. They sold off all the nice ones and then just boxed up the rest. About two years ago they started selling them again for $34 plus $16 shipping. Most of these guns were very dirty and most had bad bores. There were some that cleaned up very nice.
You will find some Russian M44 parts on some Type 53s, the Russian did supply them with parts.
I bought mine in a privite sale for $100 a little over two years ago. Some said I was crazy for spending so much at the time but the gun I bought was an all numbers matching rifle with all Chinese parts. My rifle is dated 1954.12, the .12 stands for December.
I did look at a very clean Type 53 in a gun shop in Moss Point MS. last year. The shop owner wanted $300 for it.
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Dutch Mosin
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Re: Chinese 44/53
Welcome Netherwolf.
I hope you like this forum as much as I do.
I'd buy the T-53 without hesitating one second, but then I live in Europe where you don't find these T-53's much.
I bought one a couple of years ago in Germany.
It was covered in cosmoline and the stock looked like it had been through world war 3.
After cleaning metal and stock it looked real nice and I'm glad I bought it.
You can't compare US prices to the European ones, but let's just say I paid a bit more then $170.00
Found a post that I made a long time ago.
Here it is:
Pictures of my Chinese T53.
This one came in like it just went through WW III.
I used a hairdryer and steam to get the oil and the dirt out of the stock.
Minor dents also disappear when using steam.
Then I let the stock dry for about 3 or 4 days.
After that, several layers of linseed oil (takes about 3 to 5 days).
For the finishing touch I used some beeswax.
I don’t want my Mosin Nagants to look like new again.
These are weapons with a history attached to them and I always leave them the way I bought them.
I only do some cleaning and protecting.
Here are some pictures.
Before
After
Met vriendelijke groet,
Martin
PS: How about this for a picture of "Dutch" Mosin
Met vriendelijke groet,
Martin
I hope you like this forum as much as I do.
I'd buy the T-53 without hesitating one second, but then I live in Europe where you don't find these T-53's much.
I bought one a couple of years ago in Germany.
It was covered in cosmoline and the stock looked like it had been through world war 3.
After cleaning metal and stock it looked real nice and I'm glad I bought it.
You can't compare US prices to the European ones, but let's just say I paid a bit more then $170.00
Found a post that I made a long time ago.
Here it is:
Pictures of my Chinese T53.
This one came in like it just went through WW III.
I used a hairdryer and steam to get the oil and the dirt out of the stock.
Minor dents also disappear when using steam.
Then I let the stock dry for about 3 or 4 days.
After that, several layers of linseed oil (takes about 3 to 5 days).
For the finishing touch I used some beeswax.
I don’t want my Mosin Nagants to look like new again.
These are weapons with a history attached to them and I always leave them the way I bought them.
I only do some cleaning and protecting.
Here are some pictures.
Before
After
Met vriendelijke groet,
Martin
PS: How about this for a picture of "Dutch" Mosin
Met vriendelijke groet,
Martin
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netherwolf
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:11 am
Re: Chinese 44/53
Hey Guys,
Thanks for all the replies. I'm not a hard-core M-N collector like most of you but know enough about them to know you don't run across those "oriental charcters" on the receiver every day. That's what really peeked my interest. After reading all your replies I think I can live with the mis-matched bolt but I'm still having a problem with how difficult it is to operate the action & whatever head space problems might be associated with it (I like being able to shoot what I buy). I suppose a qualified gunsmith could address the problem but that would run my cost up. I know the pawn shop owner pretty well so maybe I can get him to come down on the price (something about $170 for a wall-hanger doesn't sit well with me & something is telling me that, at $170, there's little or nothing to be made if I try to resell it). Still, I guess it wouldn't hurt to look it over again, hem-haw about the bolt & action issues & cry in my beer about it being over priced. I didn't notice any import marks on it. That doesn't mean there aren't any - it just means I didn't think to look. The rest of the rifle looked pretty darn good but no so good as to make me think it had been "restored." Well, I'm rambling so thanks again for your comments/opinions. I'll look it over again & let you all know what happens.
Netherwolf
Thanks for all the replies. I'm not a hard-core M-N collector like most of you but know enough about them to know you don't run across those "oriental charcters" on the receiver every day. That's what really peeked my interest. After reading all your replies I think I can live with the mis-matched bolt but I'm still having a problem with how difficult it is to operate the action & whatever head space problems might be associated with it (I like being able to shoot what I buy). I suppose a qualified gunsmith could address the problem but that would run my cost up. I know the pawn shop owner pretty well so maybe I can get him to come down on the price (something about $170 for a wall-hanger doesn't sit well with me & something is telling me that, at $170, there's little or nothing to be made if I try to resell it). Still, I guess it wouldn't hurt to look it over again, hem-haw about the bolt & action issues & cry in my beer about it being over priced. I didn't notice any import marks on it. That doesn't mean there aren't any - it just means I didn't think to look. The rest of the rifle looked pretty darn good but no so good as to make me think it had been "restored." Well, I'm rambling so thanks again for your comments/opinions. I'll look it over again & let you all know what happens.
Netherwolf
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TaosBob101
- Contributing Member
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- Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:55 pm
- Location: Denver,CO/Taos,NM
Re: Chinese 44/53
Thats not a bad price...I sold VG a few yrs ago for 200. Had a factory re-finish. It's one ,along w/a Polish example I'd like to have back.
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netherwolf
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- Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:11 am
Re: Chinese 44/53
Well, I went back & looked it over again yesterday. I must have been looking at a different M-44 when I said the Chinese was all matching except bolt because none of the serial numbers matched - receiver, bolt & magazine well numbers were all different. I also found import marks/info on the bayo lug. The guy was willing to knock $20 off the price but I couldn't get past the mismatched, hard functioning bolt so I passed on the deal. I just couldn't bring myself to pay $150 for a possible wall-hanger & have no idea what a gunsmith would charge to correct the problem if it was correctable at all.
Netherwolf
Netherwolf
Re: Chinese 44/53
All matching Type 53s are hard to come by. The Type 53 rifles were used hard and parts had to be changed out.
As China upgreaded it's military weaponds, the type 53s were issued to what we would call the Militia. China's Militia in it's rural arears were just simple farmers. You can bet that some of these Type 53's spent the last years of duty in the hands of poor rice farmes.
China also sent a lot of Type 53's to Vietnam to arm the VC. You will find some bring backs with battle damage.
I would not let mismatch numbers bother me when looking for a Type 53.
The stiff bolt could be something as simple as dried cosmoline or grime in the bolt. If the bolt is just hard to open and close, it could be that the extractor is farward a little.
Ask the dealer if you buy the rifle, can you return it if the repair cost is too high.
As China upgreaded it's military weaponds, the type 53s were issued to what we would call the Militia. China's Militia in it's rural arears were just simple farmers. You can bet that some of these Type 53's spent the last years of duty in the hands of poor rice farmes.
China also sent a lot of Type 53's to Vietnam to arm the VC. You will find some bring backs with battle damage.
I would not let mismatch numbers bother me when looking for a Type 53.
The stiff bolt could be something as simple as dried cosmoline or grime in the bolt. If the bolt is just hard to open and close, it could be that the extractor is farward a little.
Ask the dealer if you buy the rifle, can you return it if the repair cost is too high.