Need help with ID'ing possible first SMLE

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HK_USP_45
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Re: Need help with ID'ing possible first SMLE

Post by HK_USP_45 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:28 pm

Niner wrote:$400 for a No. 4 is high too. Even in todays market you can get them for less by shopping around. SOG , for instance is offering No. 4's in "good to very good condition" For $189. But you would need a firearms license or get a dealer to transfer it for you. I think Century did have some too for about the same kind of price.....and these are working models not the $79 drill purpose MKIII's that are also around.

Now what you are looking at seems to have an above average condition stock and I don't see any Ishaphore screw. No DP marks. Do you see any import mark on it? No import will mean it has been in the country for a while and no import mark is worth a few extra dollars.

Try a few pawn shops in your town. See what they have. But it's your money and if you are happy with the deal that is all that counts. And....prices will be different in different parts of the country I'd imagine.

There were no import marks on it -- no CAI or anything. The pictures I took are every mark that's on it, unless there are some under the stocks. Our pawn shops here don't have firearms. WI law. I've been to all the firearms shows around here, and $400-500 is pretty much going price for a N0. 4 in good condition. I've seen cheaper, but they were pretty rough. Once I did see one at a local chain store for $250.

Honestly, though, this is the first N01 that I have seen around in over a year, maybe 2 years.
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Re: Need help with ID'ing possible first SMLE

Post by Woftam » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:47 pm

So if a Troop were carrying around this rifle in 1927, wouldn't he just call it a No 1 MkIII* ? I would assume if it was just a name change, they would just call it the new one. Also, like for our rifle in the US, we say M16A2 in conversation. So how would you say it with the asterisks? Would you say, "Yeah, I carried around a Mark 3 Asterisks"?
What it was called would be heavily dependent on the context of the conversation. Training or on duty you would refer to it by the official designation of the time - ie post 1927 it would be the Rifle, No 1, MkIII*. Casually it would be called my rifle or Lee Enfield or smellie or No1. Essentially the same rifle was carried by the army, navy & air force in the UK, Australia, India, New Zealand and various other parts of the Commonwealth from 1907 to 1942. Anywhere in the Commonwealth, anywhere in that time frame, in a military context if someone said rifle they meant the No1 MkIII*.
The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it.
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HK_USP_45
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Re: Need help with ID'ing possible first SMLE

Post by HK_USP_45 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:36 pm

Woftam wrote:
So if a Troop were carrying around this rifle in 1927, wouldn't he just call it a No 1 MkIII* ? I would assume if it was just a name change, they would just call it the new one. Also, like for our rifle in the US, we say M16A2 in conversation. So how would you say it with the asterisks? Would you say, "Yeah, I carried around a Mark 3 Asterisks"?
What it was called would be heavily dependent on the context of the conversation. Training or on duty you would refer to it by the official designation of the time - ie post 1927 it would be the Rifle, No 1, MkIII*. Casually it would be called my rifle or Lee Enfield or smellie or No1. Essentially the same rifle was carried by the army, navy & air force in the UK, Australia, India, New Zealand and various other parts of the Commonwealth from 1907 to 1942. Anywhere in the Commonwealth, anywhere in that time frame, in a military context if someone said rifle they meant the No1 MkIII*.
So, they would say the word "Asterisks" at the end?
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Re: Need help with ID'ing possible first SMLE

Post by Woftam » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:12 pm

So, they would say the word "Asterisks" at the end?
Unlikely in anything other than a training or stores/accounting context.

The reason the star is there is differentiation from a military point of view. Equipment was given a specific designation - eg Rifle, Short, Magazine, Lee Enfield. Then it was given a mark - eg MkI. Then, if necessary, an asterix (or star) was appended. Thus - Rifle, SMLE, MkIII*.

Having the same mark but differing asterix's simply meant that there were minor differences between the marks that didn't require a new Mark designation.

The earliest SMLE was the MkI., then the MkI*, then the MkI**. By the time they reached the MkIII* there were major differences in regards to sights, swivel, buttplate, charger guide, front sight ears, magazine, backsight protector, volley sights, ammunition, piling swivel and cocking piece.

The differences between a MkIII and a MkIII* are minimal in comparison. Basically a MkIII has volley sights and a windage adjustable rear sight and the MkIII* doesn't.

If you enlisted in the regular British army in 1898, served in the Boer War, served in the Great War and continued on in peacetime service then the Mk's and asterix probably meant something because you had seen the changes as tehy happened. If you joined up after the Great war then it probably meant very little as until 1941 the No1 MkIII* was the only rifle you saw.

If you are QSM in peace time in the UK then the asterix makes a difference and is probably spoken. If you're sitting in Tobruk in 1941 facing the Afrika Corp then you're probably not going to be all that interested in minor details.
The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it.
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HK_USP_45
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Re: Need help with ID'ing possible first SMLE

Post by HK_USP_45 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:41 pm

Niner wrote:$400 for a No. 4 is high too. Even in todays market you can get them for less by shopping around. SOG , for instance is offering No. 4's in "good to very good condition" For $189. But you would need a firearms license or get a dealer to transfer it for you. I think Century did have some too for about the same kind of price.....and these are working models not the $79 drill purpose MKIII's that are also around.

Now what you are looking at seems to have an above average condition stock and I don't see any Ishaphore screw. No DP marks. Do you see any import mark on it? No import will mean it has been in the country for a while and no import mark is worth a few extra dollars.

Try a few pawn shops in your town. See what they have. But it's your money and if you are happy with the deal that is all that counts. And....prices will be different in different parts of the country I'd imagine.
What is an ishaphore screw?
HK_USP_45
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Re: Need help with ID'ing possible first SMLE

Post by HK_USP_45 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:50 pm

Niner wrote:$400 for a No. 4 is high too. Even in todays market you can get them for less by shopping around. SOG , for instance is offering No. 4's in "good to very good condition" For $189. But you would need a firearms license or get a dealer to transfer it for you. I think Century did have some too for about the same kind of price.....and these are working models not the $79 drill purpose MKIII's that are also around.

Now what you are looking at seems to have an above average condition stock and I don't see any Ishaphore screw. No DP marks. Do you see any import mark on it? No import will mean it has been in the country for a while and no import mark is worth a few extra dollars.

Try a few pawn shops in your town. See what they have. But it's your money and if you are happy with the deal that is all that counts. And....prices will be different in different parts of the country I'd imagine.
SOG, os that Southern Ohio Gunworks?
HK_USP_45
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Re: Need help with ID'ing possible first SMLE

Post by HK_USP_45 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:11 pm

I went to gun broker.com, and after looking there I feel pretty good about $300 for the one I found. There wer some cheaper but looked like crap. Most were more expensive and didn't look as good.
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Re: Need help with ID'ing possible first SMLE

Post by Niner » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:22 pm

The Enfields produced or FTR'd in India all had a screw put through the stock to strengthen it. I'll attach a jpg of a 1919 Lithgow that had a ftr at Isaphore. You can see the screw head under and to the left of the reciever ring.
I paid $132 for it in May of 2005 by the way.

SOG is Southern Ohio Guns. I just picked them as a for instance. If you want to get into collecting C&R guns it would pay you to get a Class 3, C&R license. You can order from all over the US and have delivered to your door.
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HK_USP_45
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Re: Need help with ID'ing possible first SMLE

Post by HK_USP_45 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:55 pm

Niner wrote:The Enfields produced or FTR'd in India all had a screw put through the stock to strengthen it. I'll attach a jpg of a 1919 Lithgow that had a ftr at Isaphore. You can see the screw head under and to the left of the reciever ring.
I paid $132 for it in May of 2005 by the way.

SOG is Southern Ohio Guns. I just picked them as a for instance. If you want to get into collecting C&R guns it would pay you to get a Class 3, C&R license. You can order from all over the US and have delivered to your door.
Haha, thanks for the advice. Don't let my lack of knowledge on the Enfield mislead -- I've been collecting milsurp for almost a decade, and I also have a Class 3. I'm not going to claim to be an expert on the topic, most of my collection is new firearms, but I have been slowly but steadily collecting milsurp as well. I just don't know a lot about the Enfield.

I didn't see a gun section on SOG. Just barrels/accessories/etc.

I've had good luck with J&G Sales. I've also had pretty good luck at my local Cabela's gun library. I got a CZ VZ52 there for $140, with extra mag and holster, when most places were selling them for $200-240.

Thanks for your help
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Re: Need help with ID'ing possible first SMLE

Post by Niner » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:06 am

You may have to login to SOG. Hit the longarms banner towards the top. They aren't any source that is particularly cheap or otherwise special. I just happen to remember their last flyer that came in the mail.
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