Milsurp After Hours

I had told Niner that I would post this here when I finished -

CUT _PASTE GUNBOARDS

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This article has been in the works for a while but has been delayed a number of times. The main reason for the delay was the death of Hannes Walter - the director of the Laidoneri Museum. Hannes was a great guy and I was able to gain a wealth of information from him over the past few years. I also must thank the Estonian Ministry Of Defense as they have been helpful in my research.

I plan on some updates to this section in the summer as I should have some photos, manuals, line drawings, and the like from Estonian production by this time. Sorry these are not in place now but again due to a number of reasons this just did not happen - Still I wanted to go ahead and share the information that I have on hand.

A great part of this information has never been seen outside of Estonia so I am pleased to bring this to the site users. Estonia is one of those nations whose history has been clouded by being a part of the former USSR and Estonian history is just now becoming accessable.

Estonia is a country that I have found very interesting and over the years I have built a decent collection of Estonian tunics-photos-and other issue gear. Much of this will be shown later this summer on Estonian Arms Dot Com - Along with articles from Estonian and Finnish authors dealing with Estonian history, miliary history, and even issue tunics. I was also able to share some of these photos in the article as well as photos from other collectors.

So at long last

http://www.mosinnagant.net/global%20mos ... stonia.asp

Enjoy

http://www.mosinnagant.net/global%20mos ... dMosin.jpg[/pic]

http://www.mosinnagant.net/global%20mos ... eBrent.jpg[/pic]

http://www.mosinnagant.net/global%20mos ... oniaM2.jpg[/pic]

Thanks very much Tuco.

Great info from a "forgotten" country.

As you might know I just started collecting Mosin Nagant rifles and carbines and I'm trying to get as much info on the subject as I can.

To bad I can't visit the country myself.

Now you make them clouds disappear.

Thanks for sharing.

Met vriendelijke groet,

Martin

Glad you liked it and there will be more added to this soon as it is a work in progress.

Another interesting photo from the 1920's - this from my collection of Estonian images.

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/uploade ... 06_11a.jpg[/pic]

Very nice site you have there. No one else has really covered this subject matter. Congrats.



Estonia came up in conversation in Finland during my last trip. The Finns did not think much of them, as Finland hoped they would have put up more resistance to the Soviets, like the Finns did during the Winter War. This would have given the Finns more time to prepare for the Winter War.

I was going to go over to Estonia this last trip but corruption with the local police in Estonia, robbing U.S. citizens, stopped me. This information was from the Finnish news service. Also apparently the Estonian Govt. hired an ex-U.S. Army General to run their Army for them. He is a great guy and has a Ranger tab too.

I guess the new freedom they have has some growing pains with it.

Most Finns that I know feel 100% the other way on the issue of Estonia. If you look and Finnish and Estonian history these nations have been close since their days of Independence. You had the Northern Boys (Pohjan Pojat) which were 2,000 Finnish volunteers fighting in the Estonian Civil War. Also a few thousand Estonians fought in Finland in 1939-1940 and 1941-1944 - These soldiers going back to Estonia to fight the Red Army when Finland left the war. Many of these same men fought the Soviet well into the 1950's - the so called Forest Brothers. There was also the Erna Group - Estonians trained in Finland after the Winter War and returning to Estonia in 1941 to fight the Red Army. These soldiers armed with Finnish arms and wearing Finnish tunics (stripped of insignia)

Recall even Finland is a much larger nation than Estonia - which is a very small nation with a small army so there was not much they could do in 1940 when the Soviets sent over 40,000 troops across the border. Also as it was not until June of 1940 that the Soviets sent the bulk of their troops to Estonia, I am not sure how the lack of "resistance" had an effect on the Finns preparing for the Winter War. The Winter War started in November of 1939 and ended in March of 1940 - So the Soviet occupation of Estonia took place after the Winter War had ended.

I am sure feelings are mixed in Finland (as they are in every nation) in regards to other nations but I would wager a great portion of the Finns understand what the Estonians had to deal with. Even today the Finns work pretty closely with the Estonians - this has changed a bit now that Estonia is a part of NATO.

I guess their point was, how would the Finnish Winter War have ended if Estonia had put up as much resistance as Finland during the same period of time. With the Russians tied up on the Finnish front, a small Army in Estonia would have been effective. Finland too was much smaller than the very large Russian Army, but they did ok considering their size. I guess their point was they gave up without a fight. Even a smaller army can be effective against a large one as the Finns proved during the winter war.

As far as Finn helping them in their Civil War. The Finns hated communists and at most times where there were communists to kill during that period of time, you would find Finns.

When I stayed in Finland I was sponsored by families that kept me in their homes, thus getting some very interesting information and high lights of Finnish history.

I guess everyone has their own perspective in regards to history.

Have we stirred up the mosin conversation here?

Think it is good to see some activity here. Particularly good to see the quality of posts and the knowledgeable and respected people posting.

According to Colonel Erkki Nordberg 25 000 Russian soldiers arrived at Estonia according to the base treaty which was made by ”pistol at temple” in Moscow.

”18 October 1939 arrived at Estonia together 25 000 Red Army soldiers, 350 tanks an 240 fight airplanes. In Haapsalu settled down 16 000, Paldinsk 4 000, Saaremaa (Ösel) 4 000 and Hiidenmaa 1 000 soldiers. (Source Arjakas 1992, pages 160-162). These troops made up the 65th Army group, which consisted of the 16th division, 18th tank attack brigade and 5th Detached Motorized Detachment (source Manninen 1990a, page 630).

We also should not forget the treaty between Sovietunion and Germany which had a secret added minutes according to which Hitler got free hands for Poland (which then Germany and Sovietunion shared) and Stalin free hands for Baltic and Finland. That makes clear what was happening and Estland was nearly full off Soviet force of arms before Winter War began.

It was astonishing that the brave Northern Boys (Pohjan Pojat) went there but they were not Finnish Governement troops. A Finnish voluntary expedition detachment made a similar kind grossing to Karelia to free tribe brothers but it failed, it nearly was succesful but in the last battle they had to pull out.

The final occupation of Estonia really took place in summer 1940.

Good points Mosu and are for the most part along the lines of what I was trying to state. The first 25,000 troops came to Estonia via treaty but it was in June that the Soviets crossed the border with the additional troops. I was incorrect (too low as it was 90,000 not 40,000 troops that crossed the border this on top of the 25,000 already there) in the total above as I found this statement –

“The June Coup and the subsequent occupation of Estonia -In June 1940, whilst the whole world was anxiously watching the unexpectedly successful onslaught of the German army in Western Europe, the Soviet Union availed itself of the opportunity to quietly do away with the independent Baltic states. Soviet propaganda accused Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania of violating the base treaties and of anti-Soviet plotting, etc. On 14 June 1940, the day that Paris fell, the Soviet Union presented an ultimatum to Lithuania demanding the admission of an unlimited number of troops and the establishment of a new government acceptable to the USSR. After Lithuania had given in to the demands, similar ultimatums were presented to Estonia and Latvia on 16 June 1940, to be answered within eight hours. By that time, Estonia had been surrounded by all sides: Soviet warships stopped Estonian vessels, Soviet bomber planes shot down a Finnish Tallinn-Helsinki passenger plane, and the Red Army troops in the bases and at the border were held at the ready. Since military resistance would have been futile, the Estonian government accepted the ultimatum: on 17 June 1940 the whole of the Estonian territory was invaded by 90 000 troops and the Soviet occupation began which lasted - with an interval of three years - for more than half a century.”

Estonian Army Numbers

Army strength (September 1939)

1,500 officers (inc. 19 general)

2,400 cadre NCOs

1,100 civilian employees

12,000 soldiers

Defence League strength

43,000 men

– In a total nationwide mobilization total forces would be around 130,000 = A very small force even if every man was armed (this mobilization would also take time as was the case in Finland). Estonia also does not have the natural defenses of Finland which was also a key in all of this. Bad weather helping the defenders was also not a factor as it was in Finland since Estonia has a rather warm climate and has very mild winters when compared to Finland.

If the Estonians would have fought in mass the Estonians would have been defeated. Now one can say that they had little to lose because as things turned out (Soviet then Nazi then Soviet once again occupations) Estonia suffered quite a bit.

Mosu on Pohjan Pojat – a friend of mine in Finland, Jukka Mattila, has done a couple of books on this subject. Have you seen these works? I have them and although my Finnish is poor, I have been told the works are outstanding. He has a new book coming out this summer in English that I did the English editing work on. While I can not state what the book is about (until it is released) I can say it is Estonian related. I have a helmet from a member of Pohjan Pojat who was also in JR27 in WW1 – The soldier , Finnish Jägermajor Gunnar Stenbäck , fought in both Estonia and Latvia so it is quite a neat piece of Finnish and Baltic State history.

Helmet info can be seen here http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/Finn-Helmets.asp

Another good source in regards to Finnish-Estonian history is Jarkko Kemppi from the Joensuu Finland-Estonia Society and Martti Turtola Director of Finnish-Estonian Institute. Mosu might know of his father Lt. Col. Johannes 'Jussi' Turtola, CO of the Infantry Regiment 53 who was killed in the Continuation War.

As I stated in the beginning of this, there is no doubt there will be mixed feelings on this subject in Finland (and elsewhere). All that I can state in that most Finns that I know have positive feelings towards Estonia and understand there was very little Estonia could do in the face of the Soviets. Finland, even in their dire straights, was in a much better position to defend their nation than were the Estonians. I am also not sure how what took place in Estonia would have had an effect on the Winter War since the Winter War ended before the Soviets invaded Estonia in mass. I guess along these lines you could turn this around and say the Estonians should be upset that the Finns left the war in 1944 while the Estonians fought until 1945 against the Soviets (really into the 1950's with the underground soldiers of the woods) - In fact when the Finns ended the war in 1944 the Estonians serving in 3rd battalion, Infantry Regiment 47 and Infantry regiment 200 (I think all members of this unit in the Finnish Army were Estonian but for some officers) were forced to leave the Finnish front to continue the fight against the Soviets in Estonia. Still I would doubt many Estonians feel in a harsh manner towards Finland because Finland made a separate peace with the USSR. Finland did what it had to do in 1944 just as Estonia did what they felt they had to do in 1940. In the end all of this was caused by Soviet actions so the blame is on their shoulders.

Oh well.... I guess I have ventured enough off topic for today



PS

The new book Finland At War, which should be out in late July and I co-authored, mentions some of this history as well. Mainly just a mention of some numbers of Estonians fighting for Finland.