Milsurp After Hours

My trip to Finland was a very interesting one this time. This was the 4th trip I made there for my study of the Finnish Military weapons, ammunition, tactics and the people.

As usual I have a group of very close friends there, that I stay with. This keeps the trip expenses down when you don’t have to pay for a hotel or meals. Hotel and meals can be very costly in Finland. I must extend my gratitude to this core group of people that come from a very interesting background. One is a the equivalence to our Police ATF agent, another is a very well known and respected knife maker and the two more are very successful engineers. Thanks again to this group of friends.

The first thing we did was to absorb some of the culture of the country. You really don’t get an understanding of what went on there during WWII, until you understand the people and their history. Very few historical studies of Finland understand that concept.

We went to a few Castles and as well as to other historical sites. The study of the Finns and the people is always fun. Living with Finns, while you are there help a lot.

I then got the opportunity to go to some very nice collections. One was a very nice uniform collection that included a full WWII aviator’s uniform. This uniform was complete. When I say complete, it had the history of the pilot’s performance to include his (what we call a 201 file in the Army) and his shoulder stocked browning Hi- Power. Also in this collections were many examples of Finnish uniforms to include a Jaeger uniform and the original 27 Jaeger unit badge.

I then went and spent all day at another very large collection. In this collection there were things that I have never heard of before in the collecting of Finnish rifles. I also got to hold about every type of Finnish used sniper rifle ever made or used by the Finn’s.

Next came a very large Lugar collection with Artillery, Navy and the Finnish guns to include the story behind the SAKO barreled Lugar’s. I was quite impressed. In this Lugar collection, was a very nice Finnish Lahti with an extended barrel, extended sites and an interesting shoulder stock. The Finns made the Tikka barrels for their Lugars. They were a much better grade of barrel than the standard German ones. But they were not as good as the Finns wanted them to be. So SAKO made custom barrels for people to buy and attach to their guns. These SAKO barrels were extremely accurate match grade barrels that could be used for target practice or combat.

Then came my trip to Estonia. I have read about some people’s experiences about their trips to Estonia as well as some versions of the Estonian part in the Finnish WWII conflict. As with everything on the net you must do your own research and make your own judgments. The first thing I did was to read the book “For Freedom Only” by Evald Uustalu. This is a good book and reflects other historical records of the Estonian involvement. During the Finnish WWII conflict approx. 2300 Estonians went to the Finnish Army service. Another 400 served in the Navy. It was a good thing that they volunteered for Finnish service. But all of the Finns to include vets of the conflict that I have had contact with did not have a high opinion of the Estonians for several reasons.

1) The Finns gave a large amount arms and ammunition to the Estonians to “slow” the Soviets down so the Finns could better prepare for the Soviet juggernaut. This did not happen and they gave up with a very brief fight. All of those weapons and ammo was lost. As most know the Finns were very short on guns and ammo during the Winter War.

2) The Soviets in turn did massive bombing of Helsinki from the now captured airfields in Talliman, Estonia. As I was there in Finland, the President of Estonia publicly apologized to the Finnish people for this during a trade speech.

3) When the Germans ran the Russians out of Estonia the Estonian volunteers in Finland wanted to quit the Finnish armed forces and return to Estonia and fight with the Germans. Finally frustrated with their complaining Mannerheim released them to fight with the Germans

While in Estonia and wanted to absorb the culture. One of the locals told me that approx 1/3 of there population is Russian. They are easy to I.D. as there were a lot of them drunk wandering the streets. My stomach that is very accurately attuned to trouble, was going off all the time there. Another thing we observed too was elderly women in the streets with tins cups begging for money. I knew I was in Eastern Europe.

We also visited several antique stores while there in Talliman. I observed a large amount of religious icons. Some fake, some real. Almost all mil surp stuff there was fakes. This is the land of the fake Finn m/39 bayonets as well as many more military items. Buying anything real or good deals is impossible. We left Estonia and I was glad to leave.

I also attended the Turkku Gun Show. The group of friends I went with, do 90% of all the gun shows in Finland to include all of the big ones. This is the show that they think is the best. Tampere is a close second. I met a lot of old friends there and I talked most of the time. I did find some good buys to include 1920s Civil Guard shooting badges, Civil Guard arm bands, cleaning rods for the m/27RV along with nose caps, m/91 rods/ hand guards and some misc. parts. One of the strangest things I found was a SK.Y marked brown leather blasting cap holder that looked like a long ammo pouch. The demolition teams used this for securing blasting caps. What I enjoy the most about the gun show was contacting old friends and having coffee with them.

As usual I met Markku Palokangas and had the afternoon with him. Marrku is a great guy and he had recently found a very rare find for the museum. It was a 1920s Mauser pistol the looks like the model 1934 in 9mm Lugar. This belonged to a Finnish Officer. He also has some amazing things in the basement of his museum as well as some new displays.

I then went to the national museum and saw the puukko knife display. While there we met another very famous puukko knife maker. He presented me with a very interesting puukko knife he made for me as a gift. I am not able to talk much about the knife, as it has not gone into production yet.

I guess I have bored you long enough. In short it was a good trip and I enjoyed myself. Who could ask for anything more?

Sounds like a good trip. I was not going to comment on this but after thinking about it decided to….. I will not get into a debate on this since this is really not the place for it. Let's just say there are other sides of the issues here that you did not mention. Some of these are outlined below.

1)The Finns gave a large amount arms and ammunition to the Estonians to “slow” the Soviets down so the Finns could better prepare for the Soviet juggernaut. This did not happen and they gave up with a very brief fight. All of those weapons and ammo was lost. As most know the Finns were very short on guns and ammo during the Winter War.

When was this aid? The Finns supplied Estonia with arms in the Estonian Civil War but sent no more arms aid to Estonia. The Estonians purchased Madsen’s from Finland, they purchased Japanese rifles-carbines from Oy Transbaltic Ab (from Finland), they purchased Kp31’s from Finland ( not in large numbers but the Estonians were going to phase out the version of the Bergman M19 SMG produced in Estonia and replace it with the Finnish KP31), as well as purchasing mortars from Tampella. The ammo was also purchased not given as aid. The Finnish Ministry of Defense and the Estonian Military of Defense show no records of this aid (I know as I have contacted both in regards to this matter) so I am wondering where you came about this info in regards to some sort of aid in the time of the Winter War? Aid is given and nothing was given it was purchased.

As for a brief fight – As I stated once before Finland was in a much better position to fight than Estonia. Finland is a larger nation, had a larger standing army, was much more of a economic power than Estonia, Estonia also did not have defensive positions as were in Finland, Estonia did not have the weather working to their advantage as the Finns did, Estonia did not have the geography working for them as the Finns did, and sadly the Estonian government sold the nation out. Still had Estonia fought the Soviets in 1940 or 1941 then end results would have been the same, Estonia would have fallen.

2) The Soviets in turn did massive bombing of Helsinki from the now captured airfields in Talliman, Estonia. As I was there in Finland, the President of Estonia publicly apologized to the Finnish people for this during a trade speech.

Very true but there were also many Estonians who under risk of life radioed Finland to warn of coming bombing attacks as the planes left the airfields in Estonia. These Estonians were found out and executed by the Red Army. The bombing raids were conducted by Soviets not by Estonians.

3) When the Germans ran the Russians out of Estonia the Estonian volunteers in Finland wanted to quit the Finnish armed forces and return to Estonia and fight with the Germans. Finally frustrated with their complaining Mannerheim released them to fight with the Germans

That is not really the facts of the matter. Most of the Estonians stayed in Finn service until 1944 and only went back to Estonia when the Narva front opened. They went back to fight in their own homeland. Recall the members of the Finnish SS did much the same thing as they wanted to be moved to the Finnish front when the threat loomed there. When most of the Estonians left Finnish service it was due to the fact the fighting in Finland was near an end and the fighting in Estonia was raging. Hard to blame them for wanting to go home to fight. Finland left the war with a separate peace while the war in Estonia went on – Many of the Estonians fought until 1945 and then many more fought into the 1950’s as the so called Forest Brothers. When Finland made peace with the Soviets in 1944 there were still Estonians actively serving in the Finnish Army, these soldiers then left Finland to continue the fight against the USSR. So the statement you made above of the Estonians wanting to leave in mass is not correct in fact the Estonians fought side by side with the Finns in the massive summer invasion of 1944 – These Estonians giving up their lives in Finnish service. They left Finland only when Estonia was invaded as the German defense in Estonia was in near ruin. They went home for good reason.

Not my words but some you might find of interest:

“By the end of July 1944 the front had to moved to Estonia after the Red army had captured Narva. In this situation and with the front line stabilized in Finland, it was self-evident that most of the Estonian volunteers wished to return home and fight the common enemy there, in defence of their own country. The Finnish High Command agreed with the Germans that the Estonian regiment would be allowed to return with a full amnesty for all personnel, including those who were deserters in German eyes. Only four named men were excluded, including captain Karl Talpak, who had been active in the Estonian anti-German resistance and one of the initial activists in the matter of creating JR200. Also, it was agreed that the regiment would be joined to an Estonian formation as a unit. When the terms had been agreed upon, the opinion of the volunteers was asked with the result that 1752 men decided to go back home and 239 men decided to stay in the Finnish army. Those who remained in Finland, where formed into a separate company and after the war most of these men emigrated to Sweden.”

Here are some interesting links – You might find the first quite interesting

http://www.lions.fi/SUOMI/toiminta/kv_a ... npojat.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_In ... giment_200

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvmTm4l025k

http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/EstLosses.htm

http://www.einst.ee/factsheets/factshee ... 9_1987.htm

BTW – Here is the aid given to Estonia in the Civil War period – Again not my words

But sent to me via email

“About the Finnish aid of arms in 1918-1919.

Source: Toe Nõmm. Eesti suurtükivägi 1918-1940. Relvastus ja ülesehitus.//Laidoneri Muuseumi aastaraamat 2004. Laidoneri Muuseum, 2005. It is a study based mostly on archival sources.

Page 51.

On 29th November 1918 to Tallinn arrived 2037 Japanese rifles, 3 MGs and ammunition. On 5th December to Tallinn arrived 3000 rifles and 20 87mm Russian model 1877/1895 guns. On 18th December arrived 4 76mm Russian M1900 guns and 12 MGs.

Overall Estonia got until 14th January 1919 10000 Japanese rifles, 18 MGs, 2 000 000 rounds of ammunition, 24 artillery pieces, 19 800 rounds of artillery ammunition, one airplane. The value of all this was agreed on 6,39 million Finnish Marks. Out 0f 20 87mm guns only 4 were in working order. Others needed some repair. In excahnge the Estonians sent to the Finns for example large quantities of ammo from ex Russian stocks. The Estonians did not need such ammo but the Finns needed. The Finnish aid was important because it came on the right time. On 8th January the Estonians had for example 26 artillery pieces in working order and 21 of them were from Finland.”

You state this is not the place to debate this and you are right, but gave a lot of information, you just posted from Estonian side of the conflict. I will have to admit on several items dealing with Finland and Estonian we will have to agree to disagree. We could drag this out forever quoting how brave Estonia was or was not.

I feel compelled to state the Finnish side. I know you represent the Estonian side well but the facts of the Estonian's being the helpers and good guys in the Finnish Winter War just is not true. They gave up the farm leaving Finland open for the Russians to use their country for a spring board for attack on Finland. The aerial attack on Finland from Tillman, Estonia airbases were devastating to Finland. The President of their country realized this recently and apologized because there were hard feeling about Estonia not doing there part.

As far as covert operations being made to transfer intel to Finland, I'm not sure about that and even if it did happen it was too little to late. The Finnish coastal artillery units like the British ones gave intel to the Finnish people about the attacks. After the attacks the Finnish Air Force would follow them back to Tilliman, Estonia and bomb and strafe the the Russian bases.

The information I received about about the Estonians is from the Finns who know their history much better than you and I. But you have the right to your opinion and I respect that. The Estonians did do some things but standing up and fighting like Finland did would have helped Finland prepare better and save Finnish lives. What help the Estonians gave was dwarfed compared to the Swedes.

If you would like to continue this discussion Brent in a better place may I suggest my forum or by email?

Sometimes these debates have the possibility of going sideways. I like ole Niner and I would hate to see that happen here.

Thank you and I would like to wish everyone over here a Happy Easter!

I have no problem with a difference of opinion here. I find what has been posted by both of you interesting content for this site. I welcome it. Neither of you has flamed the other. It is only a discussion of history as you understand it. Let the reader draw his own conclusions and perhaps do his own seach for further information. I am happy to read your comments.

Wayne _ I do understand the point you are making. I respect what you are stating and think it great you are going to Finland and learning more. That is outstanding and good for you. I have done the same thing as I have been to Finland 7 times now and have three trips planned this year alone for some work being done on a new book as well as work in process for a Finnish veterans group. So it is not as if I am just stating this off the cuff based on what I think on the issue just as you are not either. Both of us have been to Finland and spent time studying the people, their history, their military, their arms, and the like.

My main point is you are stating one segment of the Finnish side and only one side. There are plenty of Finns that would not agree with you or the Finns who shared their feelings with you. I have also spoken to a great number of vets, the family members of vets, and others not just on Finland in general but in some cases dealing directly with the Estonian-Finnish issue. Follow some of the links I posted. Look up and contact the Finnish-Estonian groups inside Finland - If you do this you will see another view of the Finnish side not just the one you are placing forward. There is not just one "Finnish side" in this debate as there are a number of viewpoints on this in Finland. There is no doubt that some feel in the manner you stated, there are others that feel more neutral, and there are others that feel 100% the opposite as you have stated. There is not just one "Finnish side". A lot of Estonians died in Finnish uniforms, on Finnish soil, defending Finland. Those that died and fought there were certainly on “the Finnish side”.



"The information I received about about the Estonians is from the Finns who know their history much better than you and I"

I am not stating that is not fact but there are others just as versed in Finnish history that would totally disagree with the statements above. As I said – There is not just one side on this issue. It is not nearly as cut and dry as you make it seem to be. It is not so cut and dry on the Estonian side either as some Estonians feel warmly towards Finland where as others feel the Finns cut and run in 1944. I feel that is unfair ( in fact it is silly) to Finland and is not correct but there is that feeling out there in segments of Estonia and also in some segments of Germany. The point being – On the Finnish side of things or the Estonian side of things there are many differing viewpoints. It is somewhat like the Finnish-German issue as there are a mix of feelings there as well. Many in Finland call the Germans brothers in arms while others feel the Germans sold Finland out in the 1939 with their treaty that allowed the Soviet Union to invade Finland. So even there is it not cut and dry in regards to how Finns view such issues.

Neither Finland nor Estonia wanted a war as war was forced upon both nations. Both nations suffered and many men, women, and children died in Estonia and Finland – Still the fighting was caused by the Soviets as the Soviets were the enemy to both nations.

Clearly I can not alter you mind here and that is fine. It just should be stated that there are others sides to this. If one wishes to learn more I suggest doing some research on their own as the facts are out there.

I am glad you had a good trip in Finland and enjoyed those photos quite a bit. The JR tunic is outstanding. I have a helmet that came from a member of JR27 who also fought in the Finnish Civil War before going to Estonia to fight in the Civil War there (a part of the Finnish Boys that volunteered in Estonia) and it is without a doubt one of the most prized items in my collection. While the badge you show is real there are sadly some fakes being made in Russia at the moment and these are starting to show up for sale in different venues. Everyone should understand that the badge Wayne shared is beyond rare so be leery of any “good deals” on these.

There are other views out there, you are correct. I appreciate your view and respect it. But you must look at the big picture.

I attempted to get people in Finland to speak well of the Estonians, but I could not find any. When I went there I tried to find "SA" stamped 91/30 bayonets from the bayonet collectors, but could not find one or anyone that has seen one. My point is when I research something I contact Finns that will try to prove me wrong, not Finns that will prove me right.

One thing you fail to do Brent while defending your views of the Estonians is that you do not look at the "Big Picture" of that war. You focus on small things that the Estonians did and not the very major down fallings of that countries actions that was very problematic for Finland. When you look at the big picture of the Estonians involvement it’s not a pretty picture. That takes nothing from the guys who fought with Finland nor does it minimize it. What they did is a small part of the Big Picture.

I petition you to do more research with an open mind as it sound like you can find no fault with them. Please look at the big picture. Even the President of Estonia apologized for their actions to Finland.

Once again we must agree to disagree on this matter. Thank you and have a good Easter.

PS: I saw a fake 27 badge in Estonia along with a lot of fake WWII German stuff.

"One thing you fail to do Brent while defending your views of the Estonians is that you do not look at the "Big Picture" of that war."

Yes I do look at the big picture. Estonia was a tiny nation that could not stop the Soviets. They were a victim of the big picture of the war and got swept away in it. You keep mentioning the short fight of the Estonians when the fact of the matter is there was next to nothing the Estonians could do. Finland had a great number of advantages the Estonians did not in regards to military defense. Had Estonia fought the Soviets they would have fallen in a matter of weeks or even days. You are looking at this in the small picture in how this directly effected Finland. It would be a bit like blaming Poland for the invasion of the USSR because they fell to the Nazi's or finding some fault in the Free Polish forces that fought with the Brits. Poland fell because Poland was not able to stand against the Germans (and also the Soviets) just as Estonia could not stand against the USSR.

"You focus on small things that the Estonians did and not the very major down fallings of that countries actions that was very problematic for Finland. "

Their downfall was the fact the Soviets took over their nation. This loss was a lot more problematic for Estonia than for Finland as thousands of Estonians were executed, deported, or the like. Estonia and the Estonians suffered much more than the Finns did in this regard. They lost their nation first to the Soviets, then to the Germans, then once again to the Soviets. You mention the women begging on the streets, this is a direct effect of the Soviet Union still being felt there. If you look at pre war Estonia it was nothing as it is today. So I do get and see the big picture. It was not Estonians job or even duty to somehow protect Finland although many of them did just that. Many Estonians would have fought the Soviets had not their government stabbed them in the back allowing Soviet troops to cross their borders in mass. Their government failed their people.

“it sound like you can find no fault with them.”

Not at all. I even stated the government sold the nation out. There are quite a number of things the Estonians could have (and maybe should have) done differently. I could say you can find only fault in them as it sure reads that way.

Yes have a Happy Easter

http://www.vm.ee/eng/kat_176/1097.html

Another good link

"

PS: I saw a fake 27 badge in Estonia along with a lot of fake WWII German stuff."

Not a shock as Estonia and Latvia are big dumping grounds for these fakes. Many are made there while other fakes are made in Russia and come across the border. There is a massive flea market in Estonia held a number of times a year and fakes are on almost every table. A lot of these "like new" M36 Soviet helmets are being made in Estonia and sold as real. They look like new as they are new being made there using cheap metal (not steel).

You just keep that info coming guys.

I love to read this stuff.

I learn with every line I read.

THANKS

Met vriendelijke groet,

Martin

This is a fascinating thread, a lot of thought provoking information!

Thank you gentlemen.

Joe