91/38 and 91/59

[Niner]

Now there is a model M 91/38 made as a carbine from the factory and there is a 91/59 cut down from a 91/30 as a cold war expedient. Then there is the 91/38 cut down from a M91 and put in a M44 stock with a new M44 sight. This later was probably made for export to third world countries to bolster the communist political aims...or maybe some backup arm in case of WWIII.

Was responding to a question on another site and got to thinking about it since Century has a new batch of 91/59's for about double what I paid for mine seven years ago.

Wonder if Century has any of these 91/38's mixed up in the batch.

The 91/59 has a regular M38 stock and a modified 91/30 sight.

[tuco]

Doubt it as these came from different nations. At least in the past they did. The 59's came from Bulgaria stocks but I can not recall on the 91-38's - but it was not Bulgaria.

[Dutch Mosin]

Didn't know there was a 91/38 that was factory made.

Always thought they were cut down rifles.

Guess I'm learning all the time.

IMHO the 91/38's came from Czechoslovakia.

The 91/38 has in almost all cases Imperial Russia markings.

There should be a T in a circle on the carbine which is a typical Czech marking.

Do not confuse this marking with the pre 1928 Tula marking(hammer in a circle)

Just my 2 cents.

Met vriendelijke groet,

Martin

[Niner]

Martin you are correct about the Czech proof mark.

[KH]

T in circle is a very common brand. You can find it in Russia also, for instance.

It is common opinion, that those carbines were made in the Czech Republik, but this opinion is wrong. I talked with every museum curator and each weapon factory there in regards of those carbines: EVERYBODY told me that Czechoslovakia NEVER produced those carbines or shortened long rifles Mosin-Nagant. The ONLY rifle Mosin-Nagant, made in Czechoslovakia, is the sniper vz. 54, and this rifle has not many parts of the Mosin-Nagant rifles.

IF the cirlce T brand should be Czech I think it indicates only that in one stage of the export of those rifles they came to the Czech Republik. May be they were inspected there after long storage.

Regards

[Dutch Mosin]

Karl-Heinz,

Thanks very much for your opinion.

It is very much appreciated.

Especially from someone with your collectors history.

I did notice however that people (collectors) have different opinions and I’m glad you jumped in here to give us your opinion on the subject.

I will stay in the middle here after having noticed that even you wrote the word IF in capital letters.

There is just no proof.

Until there is I will respect all opinions on this.

This, by the way, is one of the reasons that I like this hobby so much.

Sometimes I wish I had the time and money to do actual research but…..ah well, maybe sometime in the future.

Just one question KH.

1) Any idea what the meaning of the circle T could be then?

Thanks.

Met vriendelijke groet,

Martin

[KH]

Martin

The meaning of "circle T"?

That's the problem, as I do not know if it is Russian, Czech or from another country. I just suspect it is Russian.

The meaning could be "shortened and refurbished" or "checked for export to Algeria" or any other African country or "for our beloved communist brother countries or communist brother revolutionary armies, we want to help from the bottom of our heart with everything we have, but which for heavens sake shall not be supported with a modern weapon like the AK47"

Best regards

[tuco]

KH

I can agree that it is more than possible these were not made by the Czechs but the marking on these guns is 100% the same as seen on Czech pistols and rifles. I do not think it is a Soviet-Russian marking. I also know that the imports of these came from what is now the Czech Republic so they were there - for sure. Not all the carbines came from this nation but most did. If I recall correctly the other batches came from Romania or Bulgaria.

BTW - Did you get my email on the Estonian guns? I have had a lot of emails bounce to you as of late. Let me know as if it did not make it I will try again.

[KH]

KH
I can agree that it is more than possible these were not made by the Czechs but the marking on these guns is 100% the same as seen on Czech pistols and rifles. I do not think it is a Soviet-Russian marking. I also know that the imports of these came from what is now the Czech Republic so they were there - for sure. Not all the carbines came from this nation but most did. If I recall correctly the other batches came from Romania or Bulgaria.

BTW - Did you get my email on the Estonian guns? I have had a lot of emails bounce to you as of late. Let me know as if it did not make it I will try again.

Tuco,

I know that the Czech used such a brand, but I saw the same brand on Soviet and other Eastern weapons. There is a listing of weapons brands in the internet with photos, listing this brand for several countries too (unfortunately the reference site is gone with the partition D:/ of my computer).

So I do not say the brand is not Czech, I just say it might be of other origin. But I say that the Czechs never made any rifle Mosin-Nagant with the only exception of the sniper vz. 54.

Sorry Tuco, I did not get your email. Would you please be so kind to send it again?

Thank you and best regards

[Dutch Mosin]

for our beloved communist brother countries or communist brother revolutionary armies, we want to help from the bottom of our heart with everything we have, but which for heavens sake shall not be supported with a modern weapon like the AK47"

Thanks for your honest opinion KH, I appreciate it.

Met vriendelijke groet,

Martin