Decisive Weapons ?

[Woftam]

Thanks mate, but this ain’t finished yet. Having very little military experience and zero combat experience I am happy to defer to those that have where it is applicable. However in this instance I believe we are looking at the broader picture and with the benefit of hindsight.

There is no debate that helicopters (of specific types) can lift & transport large objects (like M102 Artillery pieces). My comments were in the context of the initial phase of an airborne assault operation. Undoubtedly the Chinooks moved heavy combat equipment around Vietnam but were they doing it in concert with the Hueys during the opening phases of operations ? They would just be a large, low, slow target. Look at Battle of Ap Bac. Four Chinooks lost when exposed only to close range small arms fire. Operation Junction City, later in the war, involved both parachute and airborne assault. However while the airborne delivery of artillery was part of the operation it was by parachute.

Gliders were used throughout the war, sometimes successfully sometimes not. They were part of the successful resupply of Bastogne. They were used to free Benito Mussolini. They were used in two operations in Sicily – successfully is debatable. They were used in Operation Dragoon – the invasion of Southern France. Operation Thursday in Burma involved the use of glider infantry to secure landing strips for the Chindits.

Helicopters, for all their undoubted benefits, do not magically cure the problems that any other airborne operation can encounter – poor weather, poor planning, poor communication. They also lack range. Looking at US airborne combat operations over the last 30 years I see –
• Grenada 1983 – paratrooper jump
• Panama 1989 – paratrooper jump.
• Kandahar 2001 – paratrooper jump
• Northern Iraq 2003 – paratrooper jump
• Northern Iraq 2003 – paratrooper jump

Also they are vulnerable. Helicopter losses for Vietnam were almost 50 percent. Hueys destroyed numbered 3,305 out of 7,013 deployed. Total helicopters destroyed were 5,086 out of 11,827 deployed. Compare this to Mustangs in WW2 – 4950 destroyed of over 15,000 deployed.

And that gentlemen is my poor attempt to defend my position (whatever that is). Now its your turn mates.

[Niner]

Operation Junction City, later in the war, involved both parachute and airborne assault. However while the airborne delivery of artillery was part of the operation it was by parachute.

Where did you get this from? The 101st never jumped in Vietnam. The 101st was the one involved with Junction City. The 101st never jumped into combat in Vietnam and that included Junction City. I can't imagine any arty was delivered by parachute during Vietnam or anywhere else in proxity to combat. No parachute jump was made into combat in Vietnam by anybody that I know of. I suspect your other late parachute assaults too...show me some evidence....please.

[Woftam]

Duncan, I agree in its time and place the longbow was a dominant weapon. However that was only for a (relatively) short time in Europe and only in certain types of engagements. Longbows are only useful in a defensive position or a set piece battle.
The composite bow had a much wider usage over a much greater period of time. Its use from horseback gives greater mobility. They can’t also be used for raiding plus hit and run.
The composite bow was also used against Knights (Hungary and Poland) with success.
To me the composite bow is a decisive weapon rather than a dominant one.

[Niner]

There were a few troops that jumped into an operation called Junction City in Vietnam. But..looks more like a stunt than a combat operation with a tactical purpose. Here is list of all parachute jumps over a lot of years involving the US in some way. Note the numbers of troops involved in each drop after WWII was over.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... -jumps.htm

[Niner Delta]

I'm really pissed now because I spent the last 45 minutes typing a reply to woftam and proving him wrong on almost every point of his last post about choppers and gliders, and it all went away when I tried to post it.

So this will be much shorter.

woftam, you don't know shit about gliders, helicopters, combat or anything else in your post.
Comparing loss ratios of WWII Mustangs to Viet Nam helicopters, duh, what were you thinking?? (or smoking)

Vern.

[Woftam]

woftam, you don't know shit about gliders, helicopters, combat or anything else in your post.

This is true. The attraction is taking the contrary viewpoint.

Comparing loss ratios of WWII Mustangs to Viet Nam helicopters, duh, what were you thinking?? (or smoking)

Had to compare it to something and the stats were just handy.

[Niner]

Vern, I know it's hell losing a long post when something doesn't send. Happened to me the other day and I nearly knocked over my beer when tossing the keyboard out the window! And it really pissed me off too.

On the other argument.....discussion.....

In one of the largest air-mobile assaults ever, 240 helicopters sweep over Tay Ninh province, beginning Operation Junction City. The goal of Junction City is to destroy Vietcong bases and the Vietcong military headquarters for South Vietnam, all of which are located in War Zone C, north of Saigon. Some 30,000 U.S. troops take part in the mission, joined by 5,000 men of the South Vietnamese Army. After 72 days, Junction City ends. American forces succeed in capturing large quantities of stores, equipment and weapons, but there are no large, decisive battles.

http://www.pbs.org/battlefieldvietnam/t ... ndex2.html

The whole point being that helecopters were the real deal that made paratroopers into unlikely future heros and airmobile troops into the new and improved way of fighting wars.

[Niner Delta]

Vern sighs wearily, shakes head slowly, shoulders droop, and he moves on...................

[DuncaninFrance]

Well NOBODY can deny that the Mushy Pea Bomb is the ultimate weapon. The A bomb and Thermo-nuclear kit just pale into minor insignificance beside the MkIB Yorkshire Mush Pea Bomb for which there is no known defence

[Niner Delta]

How about pink Pepto-Bismol ???

Vern.