Decisive Weapons ?

[Woftam]

Having a rare day off and looking at some old videotapes I noticed an ad for a series I used to watch. The series was entitled Decisive Weapons. The idea was to each week feature the development, history and impact of a weapon regarded as a major factor either in a particular conflict or on warfare generally.

The only ones I can still recall are the bayonet, the Huey and the T34.

The Huey was particularly interesting as the premise for that episode was that this was the weapon that lost America the Vietnam war by virtue of its ability to take newsmen in and out of the battles and bring the war into the living room of the American public.

Set me to pondering if there were any other weapons that can be consider as major factors in losing wars/battles ? Can we consider the German Wonder weapons (V1, V2, King Tiger, Maus etc) as having so much impact in the form of diverting resources as having the same sort of impact ?

Just some idle musings.

[DuncaninFrance]

I would have thought that the English Longbow was such a weapon

[Karl/Pa.]

Bob Newhart once did a skit on this subject. It was a bunch of cave men sitting around a log and agreeing to "ban the boulder" as too destructive a weapon. One of his people comes up and whispers in his ear, "We have a wondrous new weapon. We're calling it the spear."

[Niner]

I think the Huey was an amazing weapon. It did things that gave the military options it had never had before in wars previous to its use. It won the battles. The military owed their success to the Huey and other helicopters.

Think about it... Airborne troops, as in WWII, a couple dozen years before Vietnam, jumping from planes by parachute... the Huey made them about as out of date as lancers on horseback. Troops could be carried to battle at tree top level by each Huey and inserted in groups of ten or or eleven all in one place to a spot on a map or to wherever a commander in a C&C dropped his smoke granade. On D day in WWII airborne troops were scattered from hell and back in Normandy.. the ones that weren't killed in the air, or while hungup in trees, or drowned in the flooded areas were on their own to group up with whomever they could group up with. Companies in Vietnam came in in flights of Huey's altogether and inserted in one place or were inserted by platoons to surround some area. Whole battalions could be moved in quick time to any area. Concentration of force was amazing because of the Huey.

The Huey gunships...sometimes known as ARA in some divisions like the 101st, delivered rocket fire in support of troops... real close and with precison. The Cobra's delivered more firepower and the little Loach could draw fire for the Cobra... this was known as the Hunter-Killer team.

If the Huey had a fault in the Vietnam war, it wasn't for carrying reporters, it was for making the war too easy.

Edit...

And another thing, the huey medivac made it possible to fight in swamps and jungles and evacuate the wounded. Without the huey medivac the war couldn't have been fought at all. The death toll would have been dramatic without them.

[joseyclosey]

For me the Huey is THE iconic US helicopter.

Heres one in the West German Border Guard colours that i photographed last year in the Grenzmuseum »Schifflersgrund«
http://www.grenzmuseum.de/content_en/ausstellung.htm

[Woftam]

I have ridden in the Huey (many years ago as a young Cadet) and more modern helicopters (doing medical transfers). For all their other fine attributes I consider helicopters as nasty, noisy, uncomfortable, uncivilised means of transport. If the engine of the aircraft I'm in fails I would much rather glide than autorotate. Just a personal opinion.

However nothing says Vietnam War in Australia like the Huey. It is truly iconic in that respect. There are a few scattered around the countries as memorials but the most interesting is probably the one at Dandenong being a joint memorial for Australian & Vietnamese troops.

While D-Day wasn't successful from an airborne operations point of view don't forget there have been successful airborne operations the German invasion of Holland for example. Many other small scale operations were successful as well. Having said that I agree that the helicopter does give rapidity of movement, concentration of force & (with gunships) it brings its own fire support. What is lacking is the ability to bring in heavy equipment - light artillery, vehicles - that gliders can.

Sorry Duncan the longbow just doesn't cut it. While an excellent weapon in its own right, the medieval equivalent of artillery, I feel the composite bow (the Mongols) is a much more decisive weapon due to its mobility.

[Niner]

Choppers moved M102 artillery pieces during the Vietnam war. They wouldn't have gotten to a lot of firebases unless they were airlifted by shithooks. Gliders as transport went out of fashion right after they were first used, didn't they?

The Holland airborne event might have worked out for the Germans but not the allies. The allies jumped in daylight in an area that was lightly contested. For the allies it started out ok. But the operation resulted ultimately in the "bridge too far". The British airborne troops were cutup pretty badly at the head of the spear when the Brit tanks didn't get to them. The American Airborne units held their own but the operation was a disaster. If they had had Huey's it would have been a different matter.......and of course, they didn't.

[DuncaninFrance]

Sorry Duncan the longbow just doesn't cut it. While an excellent weapon in its own right, the medieval equivalent of artillery, I feel the composite bow (the Mongols) is a much more decisive weapon due to its mobility

.

Try telling the French Knights that G! If you think about it you have a weapon that will fire salvo's or will kill individually. It would penetrate the best armour.

Archery is not very accurate at extreme distances, so generals massed longbowmen in order to create a 'cloud of arrows.' A skillful general would alternate flights of arrows with cavalry charges, sometimes alternating flank attacks to induce shock and fear in the enemy. The arrows were used in volleys and not aimed at specific targets until the enemy was quite close. The English used longbowmen in unprecedented numbers in the Hundred Years War, as the dominant part of their armies, with approximately 7,000 archers in an army of 8,500 at the Battle of Agincourt.


I think in it's time and place it was a dominant weapon.

[Niner Delta]

woftam,

Sorry, but you are totally incorrect about the helicopters ability to move heavy equipment, and like it or not, gliders were a death trap, that's why they quit using them as soon as something better, helicopters, became available.
The CH-54 Skycrane was used in Viet Nam to move vehicles and especially to move the 155mm towed howitzer. Not exactly "light" artillery.
The CH-47 Chinook (Shithook) could move a M102 105mm howitzer, all necessary equipment, and 80 rounds of ammo slung under the chopper and the complete howitzer crew, with personal gear, riding inside. All in one load. And they could carry jeeps and 3/4ton vehicles, you just drove them inside. The modern 155mm is lighter than the old Viet Nam version.
The CH-47 is the fastest US military helicopter, who would have thought!

"The CH-47 Chinook is a highly versatile heavy-lift helicopter. Its primary missions range from troop movements and artillery emplacement to battlefield resupply. With its triple-hook cargo system, the CH-47D is able to carry heavy payloads -- for example, bulldozers and forty-foot containers -- at speeds over 155 miles per hour. In air assault operations it often serves as the principal mover of the 155-mm M198 howitzer, thirty rounds of ammunition, and an eleven-man crew. Like most US Army helicopters, the Chinook is equipped with advanced avionics and electronics, including the global positioning system. "

And now days, the UH-60 Blackhawk moves the 105mm howitzer.


And yes, on more than one occasion, I was the "lucky" bastard that stood on the rails of the M102 while the Chinook hovered right over my head while I hooked the straps of the M102 to the hook on the bottom of the chopper. It was like trying to stand up in a hurricane.

Vern.

[Niner]

Good string Woftam. Anytime a post can raise some thought out objections it's a good one.