Milsurp After Hours

Hi Guys,

Although I've been lurking around here recently I've been so busy concentrating on sorting out problems with my Martini-Henry that I haven't posted for ages. Who said "Hurrah!" ?

To cut a long story short, my ex Nepal cache 1889 BSA MkII was causing me a lot of grief with misfires. The guys on the Martini forum have been very helpful with their advice (some of it contradictory) and I now seem to have cracked the problem.

I was using reformed Brazilian 24 gauge shotgun brass purely on grounds of cost. Kynoch cases are currently £2.75 each (Bloody hell!) but they are thicker walled, solid head as opposed to balloon head and take normal large rifle primers rather than large pistol. Did anyone tell me this? Oh no.

Anyway, here's a post that I've just added to the Martini Forum which explains some of the problems and my experiences at our range this morning:

My 20 new Kynoch cases arrived midweek so I spent an afternoon carefully loading them with CCI large rifle primer, 97 grains of German FO Triangle black powder, card wad, beeswax/Crisco/olive oil cookie, two card wads and Coyoté 480 grain paper patched bullet ready for this morning's trip to the range.

So far I had only been able to fire 13 of my 40 CBC cases that I had incorrectly primed with large rifle instead of large pistol primers. I pulled the rest. When I tried to size the fired cases I ran into problems.

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As you will see if you look closely, the die has shaved metal off the base of the cases where they have bulged slightly.

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Here you can see brass particles in the mouth of the die.

I was naturally concerned that all this indicated a serious fault with the rifle so it was with some trepidation that I set myself up at our 50 metre range.

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There are eight target positions and I'm shooting on number 5 from the left. I've stapled two targets one over the other so as to use the lower one as an aiming point and, hopefully, to hit the upper one.

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To my delight I had no further light strike problems with these rounds, this shot being number 13 in a pretty rapid series. I managed to chronograph two rounds at 1363 and 1325 fps respectively.

When I checked my original target I found that a plonker on the next bench had been shooting at my target, would you believe with a 45/70 Sharps so there was no way of telling which shots were which.

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Here are my final four shots. Two of these (I don't know which) were slightly downloaded with 85 grains BP and a small over powder wad of tissue paper. (Round four is at 7 o' clock in the 5 ring and difficult to see)

When I closed the range I raked the backstop and recovered these two bullets. They are well mangled but clearly show the imprint of the distinctive Henry rifling. In front are three scraps of paper patch that I picked up just in front of the firing point. I didn't find any cardboard wads.

When I got back home I cleaned the bore with Windowlene/Windex soaked patches which went straight down smoothly and easily with no hint of any obstruction in front of the chamber.

The Kynoch brass went through the full length sizing die without drama and I have already reloaded the cases, this time with 85 grains and an over powder wad of pure cotton wool (as used in the original round).

People at the range think I'm some kind of nutter to be going to all this trouble ("Why don't you use Reloder 7 instead of that crap? etc") but one new member who flies to South Africa next Friday on a tour of the Rourke's Drift and Isandlwhana areas was amazed to be given the chance to fire a real Martini-Henry before his trip. I think I've got him hooked!

Looks like it's the expensive Kynoch cases from now on. Anyone want to buy some CBC brass?

Brian

EDIT: I missed this picture from the original post but don't know how to put it in the right place.

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Brian,

What a great post. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I've been a fan of the Martini Henry for years, but unfortunately let all of mine go over the years.

The last that I had was a commercial military model, by Tisdall.

It had been modified by having a 'recoil reducer' fitted to the butt.

About 1/2" had been cut off and the stock drilled to take two car valve springs, the butt plate was held to the stock by four slotted strips of steel which allowed the butt to move back and compress the springs during recoil.

Can't say how well it worked as I never fired it.

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Just dashed up a quick sketch.....it's the artist in me

Eoin.

Thank you for a cracking post Brian.

The damage to the cases is unusual to say the least.

You may have a an over size chamber but even so the sizing die should size the case down alright.

What make of die are you using and what sizing lube are you using?

The opening of the die could perhaps do with a bit of radiusing.

In saying all this is FL resizing really necessary?

Neck resizing should give better accuracy anyway, all you need to do is back off the die a bit 'till it isn't sizing hard to the base and sizing the neck of the case only. You can use a felt tip pen or Zippo soot on the case neck if you want to see how much you are sizing, all you need is enough of the neck sized to give a bit of bullet retention and so long as the case chambers you won't need to FL resize.

What was the issue with the primers BTW?

My Snider work is coming on and I look forward to the necked case Martini in the not too distant future.

Do you find all those wads and cookies really help with accuracy, my experience is the simpler the better.

I'm currently experimenting with enlarged primer pockets and Federal magnum primers with promising results in BP cartridges. My feeling that the more instantaneous the burn through the BP column, especially where there is some compression, is important for good accuracy and even bullet obduration into the grooves.

I'd dearly like to know how the contemporary primer burnt, burn time and temperature, in comparison to our modern offerings.

Thanks for the kind words and advice, Adam.

I've had a lot of problems with the Martini-Henry over the past three weeks since my bullet mould and brass finally arrived from America and my post is just edited highlights of my travails.

Firstly, the CBC brass is reformed from 24 gauge shotgun shells. These have pockets designed to take large pistol primers but nobody thought to mention this to me and I primed them with Federal magnum large rifle primers. As pistol primers are shallower than rifle primers mine projected from the pockets instead of being recessed below the base. Oops!

Second, these cases are quite thin, have a chamfered rim that is .001" thinner than the original and are of "balloon head" construction. This means that they hold a lot more powder than the originals - 115 grains to the top of the shoulder.

I was advised to use 85 grains BP topped up with 30 grains of 50:50 BP/Cream of wheat (semolina) as an active filler. My first time at the range I fired seven rounds that all went off with a definite, high pressure "crack" and then I had a succession of light strike misfires.

On my second trip out I managed to shoot six rounds before the same thing happened. At this I decided to pull the remainder and start again.

One of the problems is a low firing pin strike. To rectify this, metal needs to be stretched in the operating lever arms but before doing this my gunsmith mate suggested that I try some Kynoch cases. Mr Little of Kynoch advised that I use ordinary large rifle primers in his cases and not the magnums I'd used previously.

When I tried to resize the fired cases I noticed that they had bulged slightly and that's when the case shaving took place.

This morning Gert and another guy on the Martini forum suggested I adjust the die to neck size only and this was the result.

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I think I've got it about right. I previously thought that you needed a special neck sizer and wasn't aware that the FL die could be so adjusted. You live and learn, eh?

Why all this faffing about? Well, for me the attraction is to replicate the exact (or as near as possible) historical experience of shooting these old guns. The M-H cartridge was very complex and was labour intensive to produce by hand but labour was cheap in the Victorian era and they employed services orphans on the task.

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My mould is for an authentic 480 grain, cupped base, paper patched bullet. I've made a patching board, cutting template, powder trickler, cookie rolling mould and cookie cutter and mixed up a slightly improved lubricant to the authentic plain beeswax.

Originally I used the Paul Matthew's "The Paper Jacket" patch lube but as this includes Vaseline I was worried that it might cause a build up of tar in the throat and make cleaning difficult, hence the natural ingredients.

I think I'll stick with 85-90 grains of BP but modern powders apparently don't have the oomph of the original Curtis and Harvey. These later cartridges had a tissue paper sleeve inserted to reduce powder capacity but the original and the carbine round used cotton wool wadding. I got my pure cotton wool from Boots. The carbine load had a lighter bullet of 400 grains and only 70 grains of powder to counter the punishing recoil.

At the moment accuracy is not really an issue as my main concern is reliability. I fired all 20 Kynoch rounds yesterday without problem so, fingers crossed, I may have cracked it. As soon as I can I'll go to East Holme Military range or Bisley and try her out at 200-400 yards and see what happens.

Relearning long obsolete techniques is quite a challenge and the learning curve is steep. It is, however, very satisfying when it goes right. I haven't had so much fun with my clothes on in ages!

Brian

In Bisley, at the Imperial or the Trafalgar, making smoke with the ol' lady! As to loads and MV, don't forget that back in those days no one had a way to check MV except the big companies, so they could pretty much claim whatever they wanted...

I believe ther is another source specc'ing MV for 577-450 at around 1250 minimum - which is in line with what I am getting from 85grs of Swiss Fg.

And as to the wad column, well most of these rifles don't really have pristine bores, and couple that with the quite large case, then you'll be happy to use a wad column. Otherwise, you would need to put in even more powder, which could be a bit disconcerting to the shoulder - especially prone or from the bench!

577-450 is not easy to get to work - but the satisfaction when you finally can get the ol' lady to shoot accurately is all the greater! Just keep on going, you'll get there...

Excellent post Brian, it sounds like you are well and truly hooked with the black powder malarky

I wish you every success in your research, keep us posted on your progress.

Joe

Brian, I always enjoy those black powder shooters I run across. While they seem to talk in tongues when describing their sport to me, I enjoy the report of the rifles (am I sick?). Seems like the difference between a diesel engine and a gasoline engine. Yeah, I know that comparo may not sound logical!

Looking forward to your progress.

Regards, Brad

Hi Brian,

just another though on the case deformation in the die.

Are you sure that the case shellholder is in line with the die?

Amongst my Snider shell holders I have an old NDFS one that won't sit fully into the ram and consequently puts the case into the die off centre, it manages to hit the decap pin alright but as the base goes up its get harder to size. I'm sure that if I persisted then the cases would look like yours.

Just a thought.

Hey Brian,

Is there an echo in here? Some of this stuff sound familiar?

Radius the die mouth---Chamfer the mouth same o same o.

Shell holder not in line with die body.

Nope none of the above. Bad loading advice from and alledged reputable source.

85 grains of BP and 30 grains of 50/50 Cow in a CBC case. No big deal really in nice drawn solid head cases. But too much for the balloon head CBC cases.

85 grs. and one of the fiber fillers is just fine. But stay away from the solids such as CoW.

Hi Douglas and welcome to this forum. Glad you found us.

It's not so much an echo as a sharing of my experiences with the Martini-Henry with my mates on this my usual stomping ground. The guys here have very wide-ranging knowledge and interests that while predominantly Enfield-based cover all manner of British rifles.

I shall persevere with the CBC brass and have carefully loaded 20 cases with 85 grains BP, cotton wool filler and the correct primers to try alongside the Kynoch brass at the range tomorrow. This way I can make meaningful comparisons and then draw my own conclusions about how to proceed.

At the moment I think my misfires were probably due to using the wrong primers. I shall also be interested to see what a difference the fibre filler makes to case distortion.

Thanks again for all your help and advice.

Brian