First use of the No4 rifle in combat?

krinko · Post by **krinko** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:42 pm

Anybody have any idea when the No4 was blooded?

Opinions, speculations and Imperialistic Jingoism of all stripes solicited.

Thank you.

-----krinko

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL165/11 ... 013302.jpg[/pic]

Tom-May · Post by **Tom-May** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:58 am

Hi Krinko,

Given the dates, it was probably a Commando raid of some sort (sorry, I can't think of a funny answer).

Tom

Woftam · Post by **Woftam** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:20 am

Interesting question. Are we talking blooded in a major action or blooded in any action ?

Skennerton states the production began mid '41, frontline troops weren't supplied until 1942 and photo's of the No4 in the hands of (usually specialist) troops don't appear until the second half of 1942.

I would guess initial troop usage (trials ?) would have been on a small scale and close to home. So my money would be on special forces units such as the Army Commandos, RN Commandos or the SOE Commandos

How about Operation Chariot March '42 as a guess ?.

Aughnanure · Post by **Aughnanure** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:58 am

I shouldn't say this again (the original post went in the Great efup).

The Rifle No4 .303" (various marks) was first used by the Germans in WW I.

I saw them in the film "The Blue Max". The British captured some and copied them. So there

Tom-May · Post by **Tom-May** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:46 pm

Eoin,

I think you may be wrong.

I'm sure we got ours from the Arabs in "Lawrence of Arabia".

Tom.

brewstop · Post by **brewstop** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:38 pm

The trials were all done in the 1930s, so the 1941/2 production would have been able to go straight to issue.

I doubt that the rifle would have been immediately issued in small quantities as it came off the production line - the Army system is to stockpile small arms in depot and then issue Division by Division, and theatre by theatre. This is because the Division is/was the smallest self-contained organisational structure for logistics.

They would have issued the No4 in bulk: question is whether it was to units rearming in UK, or the two main theatres of operations in North Africa and the Far East. The photographic evidence seems to indicate that they first issued the No4 to 8th Army in 42 (North Africa) and 43 (Sicily, Italy), then started to re-equip 14th Army in Burma in 43.

Tom-May · Post by **Tom-May** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:51 am

"...The photographic evidence seems to indicate that they first issued the No4 to 8th Army in 42 (North Africa) and 43 (Sicily, Italy), then started to re-equip 14th Army in Burma in 43...."

George MacDonald Fraser's memoir ("Quartered Safe Out Here") seems to imply that, when serving with the 'Black Cat' Division (9th?), as part of the 14th Army, he was issued with the older pattern SMLE in 1944.

All of the photographs of the 8th Army that I can recall (without dashing off to find reference books) show the olde No 1 Mk III*.

I'd have thought it more likely that the 'new issue' would have begun a home, where any 'conversion' issues could be ironed out without the additional prombems of enemy intervention.

Regards

Tom

Mk VII · Post by **Mk VII** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:49 pm

the first use which I have noted is in the Commando raid on Vaagso, which took place over Christmas 1941.

It can be seen both in film and still shots (the Pathé website has a newsreel for download) in small numbers.

Woftam · Post by **Woftam** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:05 am

I thought Vaagso was a little early, which is why I opted for St Nazaire. Live and learn.