well, after a quiet patch, I've recently picked up a couple of rifles to add to my collection. the first is a flobert, and although retailed by W.R. Pape in Newcastle was made in Belguim. the other I got today at Holt's, a volunteer Lee Speed. although its civillian, and is far from perfect, its (mostly) an honest rifle, with the original 8 round magazine still attached, and the bolt and bolt head cover. the wood shows its scars, with a lot of dents and at least one piece missing. it has metford rifling, which I'm told is in fairly worn condition, but its still there, and overall its fairly complete. the one issue with it is that it looks like the bolt has been re serialled to the action, as the bolt serial is blued and very smooth. however, it didn't cost me too much, and so I'm quite happy with it. hopefully I'll post some pictures if I cure my computer.
regards
Nick
New rifles
Moderator: joseyclosey
odd Belgian things
The Flobert, from what little i've found out and the evidence of the two i have, are that they were Belgian made garden guns, and came in a variety of calibres, the largest I've seen being a 9mm. however, the two I have are 6mm flobert, an incredibly short .22 round when translated into English. they both bear Belgian proof marks, and one has been marked with a dual proof for nitro and black powder, so I'd date both to somewhere about 1900 or earlier. they are simple hammer guns, and lack serial numbers, which means that one is listed as an unknown maker, unknown serial on my licence. the Pape on is smooth bored, and almost long enough to be a shotgun under British law, and it seems likely that Pape ordered in a quantity of actions and then worked their own stocks, as the stock is of high quality. I'll try to get down to the range with a camera and photograph them, and then do a big photo post before xmas.
Nick
Nick
Lee Speed
KCLRPC,
Well done on the Lee Speed: I only just held back from bidding 'cos of the new bolt and the fact it was commercial instead of military. In any case, it was a very nice rifle indeed.
I confess that I then went on to bid and get the other Lee Speed a few lots later on. As with most of the rifles at Holts, the various vendors had been too lazy (or too cunning) to clean the bore, and so it was difficult to tell if it was pretty on the outside but shot-out on the inside - due to all the black residue inside.
When I got it home, it became apparent that it hadn't been cleaned since it was proofed (I guess it was a recent import by someone). The first rod through gave that heart-sinking rasping feel, and the patch came out brown and missing a fair amount of thread. Bugger. I then set about it with boiling water and a phosphor bronze brush. Thankfully, the rust hadn't quite taken hold, and the bore eventually came up smooth and shiney, which is great - because it is MINT. It is by far the best long Lee barrel I have ever seen - the rifling still has distinct lead ramps. The rust and gunge on the outside turned out to be mostly dried cosmoline and wax. The rifle seems to be almost new/unused condition.
Interestingly, the rifle is also only 39 numbers away from another Lee Speed I have.
http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL605/23 ... 846667.jpg[/pic]
http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL605/23 ... 849482.jpg[/pic]
Well done on the Lee Speed: I only just held back from bidding 'cos of the new bolt and the fact it was commercial instead of military. In any case, it was a very nice rifle indeed.
I confess that I then went on to bid and get the other Lee Speed a few lots later on. As with most of the rifles at Holts, the various vendors had been too lazy (or too cunning) to clean the bore, and so it was difficult to tell if it was pretty on the outside but shot-out on the inside - due to all the black residue inside.
When I got it home, it became apparent that it hadn't been cleaned since it was proofed (I guess it was a recent import by someone). The first rod through gave that heart-sinking rasping feel, and the patch came out brown and missing a fair amount of thread. Bugger. I then set about it with boiling water and a phosphor bronze brush. Thankfully, the rust hadn't quite taken hold, and the bore eventually came up smooth and shiney, which is great - because it is MINT. It is by far the best long Lee barrel I have ever seen - the rifling still has distinct lead ramps. The rust and gunge on the outside turned out to be mostly dried cosmoline and wax. The rifle seems to be almost new/unused condition.
Interestingly, the rifle is also only 39 numbers away from another Lee Speed I have.
working on the photos
in the mean time, you might try a search under warnant, as they are also referred to as that. I knew the bolt was new, but on the budget I shopped on I figured I'd have something different, and worry about it being non military later. as it is, my collection is far from orthodox, and is a rag tag bunch. but they all still shoot, and represent part of the story. anyway, photos later hopefully gentlemen, though the Lee will have to wait till tomorrow
Photos. hopefully
Right, I'm hoping this will work. I had to retake the photos as I hadn't the right ones. I apologise now for the low quality of some of them, it wasn't a brilliant camera. I've put in photos of both Floberts, with close ups of the actions to better illustrate these simple actions. I've also included both of my Lee Speeds, and have come up with a question to pose. why does my cape rifle have 'BSA Co' on it, and yet the Volunteer is marked 'Lee-Speed Patents'? where they by different companies, or different periods? is there any way to tell? and I've also discovered what look to be military stampings on the underside of the hand guard, so I'm wondering if thats right, or whether it has been replaced. anyway, although not as nice as Brewstops collection, here are my motley crew.
Nick
Nick
- Attachments
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- finally, a shot of my BSA Lee Speed. hopefully I will get better close ups, but the engraving is so hard to catch.
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- the volunteers action, showing the 8 round magazine and the depression under the cut off which (if I remember Skinnerton), was one of the original Speed patents.
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- a longer view. its not in terrible condition, but it does show its age. still, its all there.
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- a close up of the action again. this is the simplest, the hammer catching a foot on the block to hold it down during firing.
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- the original Warnant. a working gun, with no makers marks bar an untraceable patent number, but well balanced and functional
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- a close up of the action, though it is fairly simple, and marking
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- just to give an idea of the overall look. the foresight is a very british bead.
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coggansfield
- Regular visitor
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- Location: U.S.A.
5 Jan. 2007
7:50pm
I can’t speak to the Flobert, as I know nothing about them. However, I can tell you that the 8-round Lee-Speed is well worth some TLC. It’s a magazine Lee-Metford mk. I* (well, maybe mk. I, but that would be very unlikely). The volunteer, commercial versions of the MLM mk. I* are pretty scarce (more so than the military versions), so hold on to her.
As for your manufacturer question, BSA (Birmingham Small Arms Co.) is the manufacture of the cape gun. On the Metford, Lee-Speed is not a manufacturer. Messrs. Lee and Speed were the patent holders on the action. The “Lee” is James P. Lee, the same Lee as in Lee-Metford and Lee-Enfield. The “Speed” is John Speed, assistant manager at the Enfield factory (at least I think his first name was John and I think he was the assistant manager; I’m doing this from memory). Lee invented the basic action and patented it; Speed improved it and patented the improvement.
On commercial firearms, though not military ones, the patent holders’ names had to be acknowledged. The cape gun probably has Deeley’s patent number on the bolthead too (though his actual name will not appear).
The presence or absence of patent acknowledgements helps one date otherwise undated commercial arms, as the various patent stamps appeared at different times.
Finally, the handguard question — yes, no doubt a replacement. No worries: better to have a replacement handguard as opposed to no handguard at all.
Altogether, you have some nice purchases here.
Well done.
Coggansfield
7:50pm
I can’t speak to the Flobert, as I know nothing about them. However, I can tell you that the 8-round Lee-Speed is well worth some TLC. It’s a magazine Lee-Metford mk. I* (well, maybe mk. I, but that would be very unlikely). The volunteer, commercial versions of the MLM mk. I* are pretty scarce (more so than the military versions), so hold on to her.
As for your manufacturer question, BSA (Birmingham Small Arms Co.) is the manufacture of the cape gun. On the Metford, Lee-Speed is not a manufacturer. Messrs. Lee and Speed were the patent holders on the action. The “Lee” is James P. Lee, the same Lee as in Lee-Metford and Lee-Enfield. The “Speed” is John Speed, assistant manager at the Enfield factory (at least I think his first name was John and I think he was the assistant manager; I’m doing this from memory). Lee invented the basic action and patented it; Speed improved it and patented the improvement.
On commercial firearms, though not military ones, the patent holders’ names had to be acknowledged. The cape gun probably has Deeley’s patent number on the bolthead too (though his actual name will not appear).
The presence or absence of patent acknowledgements helps one date otherwise undated commercial arms, as the various patent stamps appeared at different times.
Finally, the handguard question — yes, no doubt a replacement. No worries: better to have a replacement handguard as opposed to no handguard at all.
Altogether, you have some nice purchases here.
Well done.
Coggansfield
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I'm confused by its identity
thanks for that. I had looked it up in the back of Skinnerton, and the Metford seems to be a cross. as far as I've seen, it has no fitting for a safety catch, yet it carries long rage dial sights up to 3500 yards, rather than the 2900 that the Mk1* is supposed to be fitted with. there is also a three digit number, on the stock just behind the wrist, stamped as if the rifle was intended to be rested on its barrel. I'm trying to get the time to strip the woodwork and give it a clean and oil. what would you suggest for the wood? I've used linseed and beeswax in the past, but on a far more modern stock.
also, the cape rifle has a foresight cover which can be folded down, and a shotgun style safety. hopefully when I get the time I will take and post more detailed photos.
cheers
Nick
also, the cape rifle has a foresight cover which can be folded down, and a shotgun style safety. hopefully when I get the time I will take and post more detailed photos.
cheers
Nick
question on maker
I've spent a few hours today giving it a thorough clean, and I've come across a couple of points, possibly minor. starting from the rear, the brass butt disk has the arrow and WD stamp on the reverse, and the bolt has military marks (which might explain the lack of patent numbers, as it is neither civilian or original apparently.) also, the rearsight bears both an EFD stamp and enfield inspectors mark, and the woodwork has been cut as if to accept a safety catch, although the metalwork lacks the space for one. as the dial sight is graduated to 3500 yards, which mark of rifle is this, a 1 or a 1*?
Nick
Nick