Ammo for those who argue our case,

[Aughnanure]

...from Rome.

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His Holiness Pope John Paul II

Evangelium Vitae

Encyclical Letter on the Value and Inviolability of Human Life

March 25, 1995

Self-Defense Is Not Just a Right, But a Grave Duty

To the Bishops, Priests and Deacons, Men and Women Religious, Lay Faithful, and All People of Good Will

55. This should not cause surprise: to kill a human being, in whom the image of God is present, is a particularly serious sin. Only God is the master of life! Yet from the beginning, faced with the many and often tragic cases which occur in the life of individuals and society, Christian reflection has sought a fuller and deeper understanding of what God's commandment prohibits and prescribes.[43] There are in fact situations in which values proposed by God's Law seem to involve a genuine paradox. This happens for example in the case of legitimate defence, in which the right to protect one's own life and the duty not to harm someone else's life are difficult to reconcile in practice. Certainly, the intrinsic value of life and the duty to love oneself no less than others are the basis of a true right to self-defence. The demanding commandment of love of neighbour, set forth in the Old Testament and confirmed by Jesus, itself presupposes love of oneself as the basis of comparison: "You shall love your neighbour as yourself" (Mk 12:31). Consequently, no one can renounce the right to self-defence out of lack of love for life or for self. This can only be done in virtue of a heroic love which deepens and transfigures the love of self into a radical self-offering, according to the spirit of the Gospel Beatitudes (cf. Mt 5:38-40). The sublime example of this self-offering is the Lord Jesus himself.

Moreover, "legitimate defence can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another's life, the common good of the family or of the State".[44] Unfortunately it happens that the need to render the aggressor incapable of causing harm sometimes involves taking his life. In this case, the fatal outcome is attributable to the aggressor whose action brought it about, even though he may not be morally responsible because of a lack of the use of reason.[45]

Footnotes:

[43] Cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, Nos. 2263-2269; cf. also Catechism of the Council of Trent III, ## 327-332.

[44] Catechism of the Catholic Church, No. 2265.

[45] Cf. SAINT THOMAS AQUINAS, Summa Theologiae, II-II, q. 64, a. 7; SAINT ALPHONSUS DE LIGUORI, Theologia Moralis, 1. III, tr. 4, c. 1, dub. 3.

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[DuncaninFrance]

Well, it's an interesting bit of writing but I believe that religion ( be it Muslim, Sikh, Catholic, Church of England or any other ) is the main reason for conflict on this planet.

Trouble is that the 'Godbotherers', like politicians start the problem off, encourage it then step back and let the military deal with it. Too many rich churches in history and too many poor worshipers!!!!

Suppose this will get the chop soon but it is meant in a constructive way - honest

[Aughnanure]

Not from me it wont.

All opinions appreciated, and I agree in general.

It's taken me a while to find that bit of info in copyable form; I don't like typing !!

I'm waiting for the next priest that tells me that people shouldn't have arms.

Here's a link

http://www.ccrkba.org/general.html

[Karl/Pa.]

Throughout history, more wars have been started over religion than for any other cause. Think about it.

[Aughnanure]

Well now Karl I'd dispute that a little.

I think the current one may be, but a lot of people seem to think that oil has something to do with it.

The Korean War didn't have anything to do with religion, it was an outright territorial grab.

WW II and WW I don't strike me as having religious causes

The Boer War was the result of outright greed

The Crimean War was a territorial and political grab.

The Indian Mutiny (aka The First Indian War of Independence) had many causes in which Religion only appears in hindsight.

The War Between the States doesn't appear to have been over religion despite both North and South being sure that God was on their side.

The various Indian Wars don't fit a religious context.

Nor does the War of 1812 or the War of Independence (aka The American Revolution)

one could go on.....

[Tom-May]

Eoin,

Just to play Devil's Advocate:-

"...The Korean War didn't have anything to do with religion,..."

It has been argued before, that Communism was a "modern secular religion" (and a fairly evangelical one at that).

"...WW II and WW I don't strike me as having religious causes..."

Nazi anti-Semitism had its roots in European Catholic Anti-Semitism and the initial alliances in the East, at the start of the Great War were as religious as 'racial' in their roots.

"...The Boer War was the result of outright greed..."

I'll give you that

"...The Crimean War was a territorial and political grab..."

But its origins were in the long running series of political/religious wars between Orthodox Russia and Islamic Turkey.

"...The Indian Mutiny (aka The First Indian War of Independence) had many causes in which Religion only appears in hindsight..."

The religious aspects seem quite well defined at the time. Certainly there was a political aspect in the desire of certain princlings' to destroy British influence but they did tend to divide on religious grounds.

"...The War Between the States doesn't appear to have been over religion despite both North and South being sure that God was on their side..."

I'll grant you that, but I'll counter with the English Civil War which was as religious as it was political.

"...The various Indian Wars don't fit a religious context..."

I'm sure there was more than one who saw the wars as a 'crusade'

Speaking of which there were a number of Crusades against the Muslims and at least one against the Cathars

Add to that the Thirty Years War, and so on.

The trouble is that politics and religion intertwine and influence each other.

Tom

[DuncaninFrance]

At a boy Tom In all of the conflicts mentioned the use of 'God is on our side' is probably attributed to both sides and at the end of the day the politicians are the ones I would like to see held to account. They are the common factor here I think, since time began.

I am a practicing 'pisseduptesticostalist' or pagan as some would say and I feel better for it!!

[Niner]

SUPREME HEADQUARTERS

ALLIED EXPEDITIONARY FORCE



Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen of the Allied Expeditionary Force!

You are about to embark upon the Great Crusade, toward which we have

striven these many months. The eyes of the world are upon you. The

hopes and prayers of liberty-loving people everywhere march with you.

In company with our brave Allies and brothers-in-arms on

other Fronts, you will bring about the destruction of the German war

machine, the elimination of Nazi tyranny over the oppressed peoples of

Europe, and security for ourselves in a free world.

Your task will not be an easy one. Your enemy is well trained, well

equipped and battle hardened. He will fight savagely.

But this is the year 1944! Much has happened since the Nazi triumphs of

1940-41. The United Nations have inflicted upon the Germans great defeats,

in open battle, man-to-man. Our air offensive has seriously reduced their

strength in the air and their capacity to wage war on the ground. Our Home

Fronts have given us an overwhelming superiority in weapons and munitions

of war, and placed at our disposal great reserves of trained fighting men.

The tide has turned! The free men of the world are marching together to

Victory!

I have full confidence in your courage and devotion to duty and skill in

battle. We will accept nothing less than full Victory!

Good luck! And let us beseech the blessing of Almighty God upon this great

and noble undertaking.

SIGNED: Dwight D. Eisenhower

[Aughnanure]

Sigh

It's politics and greed.

Sure religion han been used as the justification for many wars.

Julius probably convinced some of his backers that the Brits ought to worship a few Roman gods but the real reason was political kudos and pillage; the reasons behind Julius all the time. He was a great soldier and a great polititian and he became a trillionaire.

The Indian Mutiny was noteable for the Hindus asking the Indian ruler, who was a Muslim, to be their leader. The Sikhs either out of altruism, dislike of Hinduism or a real ability to pick the winning side fought for Britain.

However lads, don't loose sight of my reason for the initial post,

[Tom-May]

Aughnanure Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:20 am Post subject:

"...Sigh
It's politics and greed.
Sure religion han been used as the justification for many wars...
...However lads, don't loose sight of my reason for the initial post ..."

Eoin,

I'm sorry if my post seemed a little off topic, but I was just acting under the influence of my nature as a Devil's Advocate (my Father and Paternal Grandfather were much the same).

Could being 'contrary' be genetic?

Tom