I found a couple old recievers and other parts and sent them to Blue Steel Gunsmiths Contact: Steve Parries 189 Wood Cove Dr. Mt. Airy, NC. This is the result. What information can you give me about the reciever? It is an amazing rifle.
These are the reciever markings:
VR
Enfield
1896
ME 303
AC
Martini Enfield in 50/70
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birdhunter1928
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- Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:22 am
Martini Enfield in 50/70
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Re: Martini Enfield in 50/70
Sorry to say it, but at 1st glance the action is definitely a Khyber pass copy - proportions are wrong, markings are wrong, trigger is the wrong shape, cocking indicator is wrong. IOW, it is NOT what the markings say it is. A shame to put so much work in what is basically a cheap copy of the real thing, and usually made out of substandard materials.
Re: Martini Enfield in 50/70
Welcome to the site birdhunter1928. Looks like nice workmanship on that rifle, whatever its receiver origin. And although I'm a complete novice on Martini Henry rifles, I do know that they have been made for a long time and in different parts of the world. A label of "Kyber Pass" suggests that they were made last week and sold to tourists and are probably a shooting accident ready to happen. This is an assumption that should not be jumped to in my opinion. As you will note in another post I recently invested some time in a Royal Armoury of Nepal historic version of a Martini Henry made in Nepal. Good, bad, or indifferent, the one I have was issued to somebody at least once over a hundred years ago. Now, that being said, the indiginous rifles shouldn't be marked as British made. Perhaps what you have is genuine. Any other marks on it?
I'll include a link to a site that someone who has a number them has produced. Note how the 1896 carbine receiver looks a lot like yours.....the squared off right bottom corner for instance. Scan down to the MKII Artilllery carbine...thus the AC.
http://www.martinihenry.com/carbines.htm
I'll include a link to a site that someone who has a number them has produced. Note how the 1896 carbine receiver looks a lot like yours.....the squared off right bottom corner for instance. Scan down to the MKII Artilllery carbine...thus the AC.
http://www.martinihenry.com/carbines.htm
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Re: Martini Enfield in 50/70
Niner,
There are indeed rifles made abroad that are legit - but those rifles don't have counterfeit brit markings on it. If it is marked so as to pretend to be something it isn't, it is a counterfeit. The Nepali rifles were either of Brit manufacture, or of local manufacture with local markings - not pseudo brit markings. Someone tried to sell something by having it resemble 'the real thing'. 99% of those are made in Pakistan (and are stil lbeing made), usually with a single purpose - to trap unsuspecting buyers.
Now, it might hold up well - but then again, it mightn't. I for one would be suspicious of it - unknown mettalurgy, maybe questionable workmanship, tolerances? I know this isn't good news, but this one isn't even close to the original.
There are indeed rifles made abroad that are legit - but those rifles don't have counterfeit brit markings on it. If it is marked so as to pretend to be something it isn't, it is a counterfeit. The Nepali rifles were either of Brit manufacture, or of local manufacture with local markings - not pseudo brit markings. Someone tried to sell something by having it resemble 'the real thing'. 99% of those are made in Pakistan (and are stil lbeing made), usually with a single purpose - to trap unsuspecting buyers.
Now, it might hold up well - but then again, it mightn't. I for one would be suspicious of it - unknown mettalurgy, maybe questionable workmanship, tolerances? I know this isn't good news, but this one isn't even close to the original.
Re: Martini Enfield in 50/70
I'm not saying it is or isn't anything. I'd guess an actual authority, which I am not at all, would have a hard time deciding the origins of that receiver only from the photo.
One thing that may or may not be an actual observation in the photo is the "case hardened" look of the surface of the side plate. Would an original have this look? Is this what I'm seeing or am I reading more into the photo than is there?
One thing that may or may not be an actual observation in the photo is the "case hardened" look of the surface of the side plate. Would an original have this look? Is this what I'm seeing or am I reading more into the photo than is there?
Re: Martini Enfield in 50/70
There are two problems with the Khyber Pass guns. The first, like this gun, is they are represented as the real and they are not. They are sold as real at the same prices as real. They deceive and they defraud.
A favorite tactic of money counterfeiters is to bleach the ink off a real $1 bill and reprint it as a $100 bill. The money counterfeiter has the same motivation as a Khyber Pass counterfeiter to steal your money. You wouldn't accept a counterfeit $100 why would you accept a counterfeit rifle?
The other problem is their manufacture. I have examined a number of these fakes. I have three of them. They all have questionable construction. They have crudely hand fitted parts made of questionable material with little or no heat treatment. They parts have incorrect configurations and don’t often fully function as intended. We have one report on Gunboards.com of one of these rifles failing in 150 rounds. First the hinge pin started failing-bending, then the receiver cracked right above and through the hinge pin holes. None of the three fakes I have function correctly.
When IMA released the uncleaned Francotte's Martini's and Gahendra's I got a Gahnedra. I also have two stripped Gahendra actions. When I got them I checked them all very closely. I found that none of these three actions seated properly in their knuckle seats. This means the hinge pin is holding the breech block and the block is not seating. The knuckle of the breech block is supposed to fully bear in the rounded seat in the action. Its function is the same as locking lug in a bolt action rifles.
When I found the lack of full seating in the Gahendra's I checked my Counterfeit Martini's. With the hinge pin in they all have proper gap and fall within head space specs. Take the hinge pin out and seat the breech block in its seat and the hinge pin holes in breech block and receiver do not align and head space gap is far excessive.
In fairness I will say that some of the KP Martini's I have looked at are remarked European and Afghan made rifles. They were properly made, just remarked to look like British rifles. They would be worth a lot more if they had been left in proper configuration. They still are the bleached $1 bills. One of those rifle could have the marking scrubbed and be built into a good sporter rifle as was done with the pictured rifle.
Other KP’s are what I call scratch made. The pictured rifle is scratch made. We do not know its pedigree. Where did the metal come from that made the action, barrel or parts? Where the parts properly heat treated or fit?
If this gun came into my gunshop for conversion I would decline it. The Gunsmith who built this gun should have declined it also. By accepting it, I have to question his knowledge of the Martini. By building on this action he has accepted any liability for its failure.
The three counterfeits I have, I acquired to test for the book I am writing. I am testing them for function and failure. They will be written up in my book. I have test fired all three. Should I say I have tried to fire all three. One fired one time, all pierced primers. Standard headspace gauges do not fit the chambers. But they do accept cartridges and can be gauged with cartridges. Before I can continue the test I have to repair them.
Any rationalization just serves to attempt to legitimize these fakes.
A favorite tactic of money counterfeiters is to bleach the ink off a real $1 bill and reprint it as a $100 bill. The money counterfeiter has the same motivation as a Khyber Pass counterfeiter to steal your money. You wouldn't accept a counterfeit $100 why would you accept a counterfeit rifle?
The other problem is their manufacture. I have examined a number of these fakes. I have three of them. They all have questionable construction. They have crudely hand fitted parts made of questionable material with little or no heat treatment. They parts have incorrect configurations and don’t often fully function as intended. We have one report on Gunboards.com of one of these rifles failing in 150 rounds. First the hinge pin started failing-bending, then the receiver cracked right above and through the hinge pin holes. None of the three fakes I have function correctly.
When IMA released the uncleaned Francotte's Martini's and Gahendra's I got a Gahnedra. I also have two stripped Gahendra actions. When I got them I checked them all very closely. I found that none of these three actions seated properly in their knuckle seats. This means the hinge pin is holding the breech block and the block is not seating. The knuckle of the breech block is supposed to fully bear in the rounded seat in the action. Its function is the same as locking lug in a bolt action rifles.
When I found the lack of full seating in the Gahendra's I checked my Counterfeit Martini's. With the hinge pin in they all have proper gap and fall within head space specs. Take the hinge pin out and seat the breech block in its seat and the hinge pin holes in breech block and receiver do not align and head space gap is far excessive.
In fairness I will say that some of the KP Martini's I have looked at are remarked European and Afghan made rifles. They were properly made, just remarked to look like British rifles. They would be worth a lot more if they had been left in proper configuration. They still are the bleached $1 bills. One of those rifle could have the marking scrubbed and be built into a good sporter rifle as was done with the pictured rifle.
Other KP’s are what I call scratch made. The pictured rifle is scratch made. We do not know its pedigree. Where did the metal come from that made the action, barrel or parts? Where the parts properly heat treated or fit?
If this gun came into my gunshop for conversion I would decline it. The Gunsmith who built this gun should have declined it also. By accepting it, I have to question his knowledge of the Martini. By building on this action he has accepted any liability for its failure.
The three counterfeits I have, I acquired to test for the book I am writing. I am testing them for function and failure. They will be written up in my book. I have test fired all three. Should I say I have tried to fire all three. One fired one time, all pierced primers. Standard headspace gauges do not fit the chambers. But they do accept cartridges and can be gauged with cartridges. Before I can continue the test I have to repair them.
Any rationalization just serves to attempt to legitimize these fakes.
Douglas
Re: Martini Enfield in 50/70
I don't suggest that one of the late constructed Pakistani fake British marked rifles are legitimate or of a quality enough to be fired, nor that the earlier ones made over a hundred years ago and contract made for use were of any proved for use quality either. My point is, how can any knowledgeable person know what this man has just from a single photo and not having examined it?
Re: Martini Enfield in 50/70
This isn't the first place he has posted pictures of this rifle and isn't the first time we have seen this patternaction.
Gert says it pretty clearly.
But let me review.
Start with counterfiet.
The rifle has all the markings of a Martini Enfield in .303 AC. Only problem the markings are on the right side of the receiver. The coversions marks to .303 are on the left side of real ME's and this is a rifle action, not a carbine.
"Scratch built"
I have examined a good number of these fakes. I have three. I also have examine numeorus real ones, I have quite few.
The lever is the wrong shape. The trigger is the wrong shape. The Trigger guard is the wrong shape. Cocking indicators were not constructed in the manner this one is constructed. The buttsocket has has the wrong down slope angle. Look real close at the over and under picture for comparison...the trigger is glaring
And thats just the stuff I can see in the picture.
Sorry, I don't need to examine this rifle to know it is fake.
Gert says it pretty clearly.
But let me review.
Start with counterfiet.
The rifle has all the markings of a Martini Enfield in .303 AC. Only problem the markings are on the right side of the receiver. The coversions marks to .303 are on the left side of real ME's and this is a rifle action, not a carbine.
"Scratch built"
I have examined a good number of these fakes. I have three. I also have examine numeorus real ones, I have quite few.
The lever is the wrong shape. The trigger is the wrong shape. The Trigger guard is the wrong shape. Cocking indicators were not constructed in the manner this one is constructed. The buttsocket has has the wrong down slope angle. Look real close at the over and under picture for comparison...the trigger is glaring
And thats just the stuff I can see in the picture.
Sorry, I don't need to examine this rifle to know it is fake.
Douglas
Re: Martini Enfield in 50/70
Ok... I give up. You have made reasonable points. I only thought there may be some other explanation of the source of the receiver. Obviously you know of what you write.
Re: Martini Enfield in 50/70
I'm sorry if I seem a bit anal about these counterfiets, but I am a bit anal about these counterfiets.
I don't like cheats and thieves. The people that make these and sell them are cheats and thieves. The Gi's in Afghanistan and well meaning folks like Birdhunter1928 are victims of these cheats and thieves. The only way to stop these cheats and thieves is to expose these fakes for what they are.
I sorry if one person got burned, but if it stops some one else from getting cheated, well that is good.
If any one is looking at a Martini and wants to know if it is real or fake, I am more than willing to help---just ask.
I don't like cheats and thieves. The people that make these and sell them are cheats and thieves. The Gi's in Afghanistan and well meaning folks like Birdhunter1928 are victims of these cheats and thieves. The only way to stop these cheats and thieves is to expose these fakes for what they are.
I sorry if one person got burned, but if it stops some one else from getting cheated, well that is good.
If any one is looking at a Martini and wants to know if it is real or fake, I am more than willing to help---just ask.
Douglas