Some I.D. info / confirmation please

[DuncaninFrance]

Whilst clearing out a house owned by a now departed relative a friend came across the following clips of ammo.





Initially we thought that is was 6.5 x 53.5mm Daudeteau BUT although it is similar it does not appear to have the right base.

This lead us to believe that it is 6.5 x 53Rmm Dutch Mannlicher used in the models 1892 & 1895 and Rumanian Models 1892 & 1893.
The clip appears to have been painted with a copper/bronze ish paint.

Can anyone throw any light on the matter please

The following page includes information copied from "Cartridges of the World" 10th edition.

[DuncaninFrance]

Here is some info from a friend on another forum that I Moderate on which seems to answer the question.

Dutch 6.5x53.5 Mannlicher (Dutch, Romanian, Portuguese, ...) produced at Artillery Inrichtingen (Artillery Facilities - an Army Arsenal), Zaandam (Hembrug), The Netherlands.

35 12 0'Clock: year the brass was made
35 3 O'Clock: year the cartridge was loaded
O (letter) 6 O'Clock: brass maker, Artillerie Inrichtingen - Arty Facilities - in Zaandam (Hembrug)
38 9 O'Clock: Powder lot number

Any advance on this Martin

[Dutch Mosin]

Here is some info from a friend on another forum that I Moderate on which seems to answer the question.

Dutch 6.5x53.5 Mannlicher (Dutch, Romanian, Portuguese, ...) produced at Artillery Inrichtingen (Artillery Facilities - an Army Arsenal), Zaandam (Hembrug), The Netherlands.

35 12 0'Clock: year the brass was made
35 3 O'Clock: year the cartridge was loaded
O (letter) 6 O'Clock: brass maker, Artillerie Inrichtingen - Arty Facilities - in Zaandam (Hembrug)
38 9 O'Clock: Powder lot number

Any advance on this Martin

I think you have all the data that can be retrieved from the head stamp.
I could add that the case was developed by G.Roth in Vienna.
From 1896 G.Roth delivered parts like bullets, cases and primers to the Netherlands.
More specific they were sent to the cartridge factory in Delft where all components were put together.
Powder was delivered by the Dutch Powder Factory in Muiden.
In March 1897 the cartridge production was moved to Artillery Inrichtingen, Zaandam Netherlands still using the components delivered by G.Roth.
Because of the lack of qualified workers, Dutch cartridge production started in May 1898.

Some data on the first cartridges:

Cartridge length: 77.50mm
Case length: 53.60mm
Bullet length: 31.40mm
Bullet weight: 10.15 grams / 156 gn
Total cartridge weight: 22.00 grams / 338.36 gn

I could write a book on all the different powders, bullets, head stamps, clips and many different types of cartridges that were produced and used by the Dutch.
I wont do that for 2 reasons.
1) The book has already been written.
2) It would take me hours to type down all the info on this cartridge.

If you have a specific question Duncan, just let me know and I'll try to find the answer for you.



Dutch Steyr Mannlicher M95 with type 1 bayonet.


I have one question for you: Could you check the bottom of the clip please.
In most cases you will find a stamp of the manufacturer there.

Here's a picture of a box with 2 clips that I own.
Rifle ammo was packed per 2 clips in a cardboard box.
The Dutch name for this cartridge is: Scherpe patroon No. 1.
The letters AM on the box mean that in this cartridge American powder was used.



I own a Dutch Steyr Mannlicher M95 in this caliber, but do not use the military ammo.
It is too expensive and my experience is that most ammo was not stored very well and has gone bad over the years.
It either refuses to fire or it fires with a delay.
I reform .303 cases to 6.5mm Dutch.
It's a lot of extra work, but I see it as part of my hobby.

Here's a picture of the different stages from .303 to 6.5.



From left to right:
1) .303 British
2) .303 reformed to 6.5mm using a 6.5x53.5 RCBS die set
3) reformed .303 trimmed back to correct length (53.45mm) still to be fire formed
4) Original Dutch case from 1926

Problem with the original cases is that they can not be reloaded.
The primers that they used had a diameter of 5.00mm.
Nowadays the primers have a diameter of 5.50mm
Besides that they used a berdan case with only one flash hole.



.....only one flash hole....

I've used many different brands of .303 cases over the years and my experience is that the Dutch manufactured .303 cases are of the best quality.
Problem with these cases is that they use berdan primers with a diameter of 6.35 or 6.45mm.
I found a few, but they are not manufactured anymore.
To avoid all sort of problems I bought some Winchester boxer cases in .303.
They work fine.
I can use them 7 or 8 times and after that they start to show cracks in the neck area.
I don't mind though........The M95 is not a rifle that I take to the range every other week.


......cracks in the neck........


Met vriendelijke groet,

Martin

[DuncaninFrance]

Thanks for that Martin, I will pass it on.
The clips seem to have been painted recently - last 20 years perhaps - but I will have a good look at them and let you know in due course.
I am not sure that the owner is particularly interested in them but I don't know for certain. If he wants to get rid of them I will see what I can do for you!

[DuncaninFrance]

I have not been able to get my hands on the clips again martin but am working on it!
I think that on the one I photographed the bottom had 34 stamped on it and below that was a letter, either a P or an R but I need to look again. Will keep you p[osted

[Dutch Mosin]

No problem Duncan.
The 34 P could be correct.
Not all manufacturers of the Dutch clips are known.
All I can find about the clips that are marked 34 P is that they are lacquered (painted) and have a round hole in the bottom.

Here's a picture of some older clips that I own.
Some are laquered, others are not.
None of them have the round hole in the bottom.




Met vriendelijke groet,

Martin

[DuncaninFrance]

OK Martin, I will see what I can find when I next see Jean.

[DuncaninFrance]

Quick work eh

My pal let me have the 2 clips he found and also the box that was with them (which is very dirty).



There is some French writing on the back but it is in pen and almost impossible to read.

The other clip has 4 rounds in it - one is damaged. The case is dented just below the shoulder and it looks as though
it has been in a small vice although the bullet does not seem to have been removed.

Both clips have 34 over an R stamped on them and the have a circular hole in the base. They are both lacquered.

We are not sure why these cartridges were in this house but Jean says he is going to have a very detailed look to see if he can find any more
or even a rifle! It may be to do with the War and the Resistance although I think it is more likely to have been kit 'liberated' by the Germans
on their way through Holland in 1940 and either used by 3rd line troops guarding something OR pinched by the resistance from German stores.

Will keep you posted

[Reese Williams]

Martin,

Have you tried annealing your cases? Might give you some longer life.

[Dutch Mosin]

@Duncan,

I think the use by 3rd line guard units is the most likely version.

Let me know if Jean finds more after his detailed search.
BTW, great find.....even though the box is damaged, it matches the head stamps on the cartridges.
You should keep them together.


@Reese
First of all, thank you for your reply.
To answer your question: Yes I have tried that and it does prolong the life of the cases, but only for 1 or 2 times more.
I think the reforming from .303 to 6.5 Dutch stresses the material a lot.
Not on all, but many cases show oil dents after reforming and these are the places on the case that start showing cracks after 7 or 8 times reloading.

I used to use 34 gn of VihtaVuori N140 at first, but after switching to N110 I could reduce the load to 13.8gn.
This also prolonged the life of the cases from 5 to the earlier mentioned 7 or 8 times.
I have to add that I only neck size the cases.


Dutch manufactured .303 case deprimed.
primer pocket is not yet cleaned.

The Dutch manufactured .303 cases are of a better quality.
I haven't used them that much, but my guess is that I can use them at least 10 times.
The only problem is that I will have to find more 6.35 or 6.45mm Berdan primers.


Left 5.5mm and right 6.45mm Berdan primer


Met vriendelijke groet,

Martin