I was wondering if these are any good. Are they any better or worse than the Sterling conversions? Good shooters or not so good? I have seen one for sale in very nice condition but not cheap. Any info appreciated.
Regards
Peter.
Charnwood No.4 7.62 conversions
Moderator: joseyclosey
Charnwoods
I have a Sterling, a Charnwood and an L8, plus another sporterised Sterling.
Apart from the ejector on the Sterling, the rifles are essentially identical: standard No4 woodwork, military bedding and identical barrel profiles (as far as I can tell, the Charnwood uses Sterling components, whilst the L8 has an Enfield barrel).
The L8 and Sterling(s) are converted Mk 1/2s, whilst the Charnwood is a complete "bitsa" with a scrubbed and reparkerised (nice bronze colour) receiver.
The L8 has a bit of wear (think its a rebarrel of a trials rifle), but the others have mint bores. All have similar tight headspace on no-go 7.62mm gauge (ie bolt handle closes about half-way).
On all four rifles, shooting is average to good compared to a scale of .303 No4 rifles. Best results are undoubtedly with 144gn RG 7.62mm NATO ammo (I've tried about seven different types), which is to be expected with any 7.62mm Enfield.
Despite the new bores and correct bedding, the rifles all struggle to better 2 1/2" @ 100 yds - compared to the 1" or so that a very good .303 No4 can achieve. Whilst this group size is well within the military .303 acceptance standard, it is not as good as you might expect.
Interestingly, the sporterised Sterling (and another I have seen) have been given loads of epoxy bedding - presumably in an effort to accurise.
I've heard "gunshop lore" and old REME armourers state that 7.62mm in a No4 barrel profile has "bad harmonics". Whatever the science, i'd have to say that there is something in this - comparing 7.62mm No4s to .303 no4s and to the heavy-barrel Enfields such as L39, L42, Enforcer, Envoy, Ma Parker specials, etc.
At this point, I'll say I also have a centre-bedded DCCRA rifle with mint bore in a lug-less barrel. That rifle is excellent at 600yds, but not so hot at 1000yds - again, I have a 1943 Fazakerley .303 which can beat it using just iron sights....
Whatever the accuracy issues, all of the 7.62mm No4s are very nice shooting rifles: no more rim jams, reasonably mild recoil, and a choice of modern ammunition. The Charnwoods have a niche of their own in the Enfield world, and i know several people looking to add one to their collections. I'd say go ahead and buy the rifle you have lined up: you'll enjoy shooting it.
Apart from the ejector on the Sterling, the rifles are essentially identical: standard No4 woodwork, military bedding and identical barrel profiles (as far as I can tell, the Charnwood uses Sterling components, whilst the L8 has an Enfield barrel).
The L8 and Sterling(s) are converted Mk 1/2s, whilst the Charnwood is a complete "bitsa" with a scrubbed and reparkerised (nice bronze colour) receiver.
The L8 has a bit of wear (think its a rebarrel of a trials rifle), but the others have mint bores. All have similar tight headspace on no-go 7.62mm gauge (ie bolt handle closes about half-way).
On all four rifles, shooting is average to good compared to a scale of .303 No4 rifles. Best results are undoubtedly with 144gn RG 7.62mm NATO ammo (I've tried about seven different types), which is to be expected with any 7.62mm Enfield.
Despite the new bores and correct bedding, the rifles all struggle to better 2 1/2" @ 100 yds - compared to the 1" or so that a very good .303 No4 can achieve. Whilst this group size is well within the military .303 acceptance standard, it is not as good as you might expect.
Interestingly, the sporterised Sterling (and another I have seen) have been given loads of epoxy bedding - presumably in an effort to accurise.
I've heard "gunshop lore" and old REME armourers state that 7.62mm in a No4 barrel profile has "bad harmonics". Whatever the science, i'd have to say that there is something in this - comparing 7.62mm No4s to .303 no4s and to the heavy-barrel Enfields such as L39, L42, Enforcer, Envoy, Ma Parker specials, etc.
At this point, I'll say I also have a centre-bedded DCCRA rifle with mint bore in a lug-less barrel. That rifle is excellent at 600yds, but not so hot at 1000yds - again, I have a 1943 Fazakerley .303 which can beat it using just iron sights....
Whatever the accuracy issues, all of the 7.62mm No4s are very nice shooting rifles: no more rim jams, reasonably mild recoil, and a choice of modern ammunition. The Charnwoods have a niche of their own in the Enfield world, and i know several people looking to add one to their collections. I'd say go ahead and buy the rifle you have lined up: you'll enjoy shooting it.
Any Chance of a picture of one of these rifles?
I'd be curious to see an example.
The Charnwoods and Sterling are interesting conversions that tried to use the redundant No 4 actions as a "new" 7.62 NATO round rifle for underdeveloped countries that wanted a cheaper alternative to the autos and semis that the west was using. Unfortunately but understandably those markets never developed.
They are an interesting swan song development of the No4 and are all part of the Enfield legacy.
Brewstop has given a good description/assessment of the rifles and barrel harmonics issue is accepted as the reason for these rifles relatively poor accuracy performance of the 7.62 NATO on the No4 action.
The gunrunners have one in stock and we had a bit play with it on the range recently, I was interested but a bit outwith where my collecting is focussed at present.
If the price is right they are a relatively rare variant (show me a cheap Enfield anywhere here now) Peter I'd snap it up if you have the space, you won't loose money on it and can always pass it on later if you tire of it.
They are an interesting swan song development of the No4 and are all part of the Enfield legacy.
Brewstop has given a good description/assessment of the rifles and barrel harmonics issue is accepted as the reason for these rifles relatively poor accuracy performance of the 7.62 NATO on the No4 action.
The gunrunners have one in stock and we had a bit play with it on the range recently, I was interested but a bit outwith where my collecting is focussed at present.
If the price is right they are a relatively rare variant (show me a cheap Enfield anywhere here now) Peter I'd snap it up if you have the space, you won't loose money on it and can always pass it on later if you tire of it.
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joseyclosey
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Robert, this is the example Adam is talking about.
Joe
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v14/j ... wod011.jpg[/pic]
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v14/j ... wod015.jpg[/pic]
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v14/j ... wod013.jpg[/pic]
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v14/j ... wod012.jpg[/pic]
Joe
Thanks Joe
There is an article in the current Shootgun News about exchanging the standard Mk1 site for the windage adjustable sight. What they are showing in this story looks just like the sight on the rifle you show. The one in the article comes from Sarco for about $49 and is said to be surplus that was originally installed on a version of No. 4 in .22 rimfire.
Charwoods
My Charnwood is No.021, but is/was a Mk1 action and has no makers marks left.
Beware of "No4 target sights" - I believe the Sarco sights are in fact a No4 sight converted for use on a Parker Hale rifle. They look like a PH4 sight (an actual target sight for the No4), but the base is wider than that of the No4 sight.
Beware of "No4 target sights" - I believe the Sarco sights are in fact a No4 sight converted for use on a Parker Hale rifle. They look like a PH4 sight (an actual target sight for the No4), but the base is wider than that of the No4 sight.
Thanks for the information
I'm still not decided about buying it. The one from the gunrunners is the one I had seen on their website. I might leave it and look for a nice L39 instead.
Regards
Peter.
Regards
Peter.
Peter anything you buy from the Gunrunners will be the best available you might pay a little bit more but they only deal in superior examples and they are good people to do buisness with.
But at the end of the day its your choice.
If you are looking for a 7.62 version in particular I know were there is a sterling conversion for sale for 275 pounds thats in decent nick.
But at the end of the day its your choice.
If you are looking for a 7.62 version in particular I know were there is a sterling conversion for sale for 275 pounds thats in decent nick.
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A square 10
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i had a charnwood , it was OK but not as smooth as my various 303 no4s - always felt the mag needed some TLC to feed well , i traded it [lost a bit] and it went to a great home as ive seen it posted a number of times , mine was cleaned of original maker and also mkI , ive found my ishy 2A1 is by far a smoother feed and more accurate as well in spite of the older notch sight ,